I think the version issue is a general problem with CRM documentation, which is related to the other thread about being able to resolve URIs consistently. If you go to http://www.cidoc-crm.org/ and click "Current Version", it's 6.2.3, so I wasn't aware there were any newer ones. Now that I've found the documentation for the actual latest version, I see that P190 offers the following example:
"The inscription (E34) on Rijksmuseum object SK-A-1601 has symbolic content “B”" So I think this would work. On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 4:17 PM Robert Sanderson <rsander...@getty.edu> wrote: > > > P190 is in the most recent PDFs since about 6.2.4 or 6.2.5? (In linked art > it’s mapped to `content`, FWIW). > > > > Apart from my general disinterest in E37 and E34, I think the scope note > for E37 could be made more precise … I don’t think that E37 can represent a > “short text” as text implies language, and E37 is not a subclass of E33 > Linguistic Object. E37 is only visual (a subclass of E36) compared to E34 > which is both. > > > > That said, you could exchange E33 for E37 in my model, as P190 is a > property of E90 Symbolic Object, which is in the class hierarchy for all of > the above options. > > The relevant first sentence for P190: > > This property associates an instance of E90 Symbolic Object with a > complete, identifying representation of its content in the form of an > instance of E62 String > > > > Rob > > > > *From: *Ethan Gruber <ewg4x...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 12:21 PM > *To: *Robert Sanderson <rsander...@getty.edu> > *Cc: *"crm-sig@ics.forth.gr" <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > *Subject: *Re: [Crm-sig] A symbol made of symbols > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > I'm not sure that works since we've decided that a monogram is an E37_Mark > ("This class comprises symbols, signs, signatures or short texts applied to > instances of E24 Physical Man-Made Thing by arbitrary techniques in order > to indicate the creator, owner, dedications, purpose, etc."). > > > > I think your example doesn't allow us to answer the baseline research > question of querying for individual letters that comprise a monogram. > > > > <chi-rho> a crm:E37_Mark ; > > crm:P106_is_composed_of "Χ"; #Greek chi > > crm:P106_is_composed_of "Ρ" . #Greek rho > > > > Where is P190 documented? I'm looking at the PDF for 6.2.3, and I'm not > seeing that property in there. Or, there is a P190, but it's not > has_symbolic_content. > > > > Ethan > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 2:07 PM Robert Sanderson <rsander...@getty.edu> > wrote: > > > > Ethan, > > > > Could you do : > > > > ?monogram a E33_Linguistic_Object ; crm:P106_is_composed_of ?character . > > ?character a E33_Linguistic_Object ; crm:P190_has_symbolic_content “☧” . > > > > ? > > > > That would avoid the punning that the chi-rho is both an E33 and a literal > at the same time. > > > > Rob > > > > *From: *Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Ethan Gruber < > ewg4x...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 9:59 AM > *Cc: *"crm-sig@ics.forth.gr" <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > *Subject: *Re: [Crm-sig] A symbol made of symbols > > > > I have a followup question to the use of crm:P165i_is_incorporated_in. We > have implemented this property to link a Monogram to a representative, > idealized SVG URI. In a very narrow subset of cases (maybe only one that I > know of so far), a monogram is notable enough to have warranted entry into > Unicode, the chi-rho Christogram: ☧ > > > > We have a need to define URIs for these Christograms so that we can > exploit the constituent letters via P106_is_composed_of in SPARQL. We have > at least a few examples of Monograms that consist of both Latin letters and > a Christogram, e.g., > > > > ?monogram crm:P106_is_composed_of+ "Ρ" #Greek rho > > > > So I just want to confirm that a single Unicode character itself is an E73 > Information Object, even if this is an unusual implementation. > > > > ?monogram crm:P165i_is_incorporated_in "☧" > > > > Ethan > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:15 AM Ethan Gruber <ewg4x...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi George, > > > > I think this makes a lot of sense. I can use the D1 Digital Object, and > this is pretty useful for us as I would like to be able to associate the > SVG with the person who created it or other processes of production > (derived from a font file, e.g.). I've forwarded to the Nomisma list and > hopefully we'll agree and start publishing our monograms online soon. > > > > Thanks, > > Ethan > > > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:28 AM George Bruseker <george.bruse...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi Ethan, > > > > Here is my take. > > > > > > > > I have a large number (thousands) of monograms that appear on Greek > coinage. There is an SVG file that represents an idealized form of the > monogram. The Nomisma ontology has a nmo:Monogram class, and I am > attempting to link Nomisma more directly as subclasses or subproperties to > CIDOC-CRM ones. A monogram fits the definition of a subclass of > crm:E37_Mark: > > > > "This class comprises symbols, signs, signatures or short texts > applied to instances of E24 Physical Man-Made Thing by arbitrary > techniques in order to indicate the creator, owner, dedications, purpose, > etc." > > > > Yes, it seems the right match. > > > > > > In this sense, if I want to link a monogram to its constituent letters, is > P106_is_composed_of the appropriate property for this? > > > > For example, I have a URI for a monogram, > http://numismatics.org/ocre/symbol/monogram.ric.10.theodosius_ii.3 > > > > Therefore: > > > > <http://numismatics.org/ocre/symbol/monogram.ric.10.theodosius_ii.3> a > nmo:Monogram ; > > crm:P106_is_composed_of "T" ; > > crm:P106_is_composed_of "H" . > > > > > > This also seems the right match. If you are not concerned about the > particular form of the letters, then I guess you could make the letters > instances of E90 Symbolic Object. > > > > etc. > > > > The next question I have is how do I link this concept of a monogram to > one or more SVG files that represent this monogram? There could be variant > images based on individual styles of die-carvers, but scholars agree these > variations represent the same semantic concept. > > > > I am looking at the documentation for P138 represents, and I am having a > difficult time understanding the distinction between the examples where a > digital file (PLY 3D model or a JPEG image) is the E36 Visual Item, but in > other documentation the E36 Visual Item seems more conceptual. > > > > If a Visual Item is definitionally an E1 CRM Entity, then a Visual Item > can still represent another Visual Item, correct? So: > > > > <http://numismatics.org/ocre/symbol/monogram.ric.10.theodosius_ii.3> a > nmo:Monogram ; > > crm:P106_is_composed_of "T" ; > > crm:P106_is_composed_of "H" ; > > crm:P138i_has_representation < > http://numismatics.org/ocre/symbols/monogram.ric.10.theodosius_ii.3> #svg > file url > > > > > > For the question of relating the instance of Mark (the monograms) to the > SVG, I would do this otherwise. I would take advantage of D1 Digital Object > class for the instances of SVG and their characteristics. [if you won’t > like extensions, then E73 information object] I would then link the > instances of D1 to the individual marks through the p165 > <http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Property/P165-incorporates/Version-6.2.1> > incorporation > property which allows one information object to incorporate another. > > > > For the question of relating one instance of Mark (such that that is > uniquely identifiable from another but which is nevertheless a variant of > the same Mark), you could make use of the p130 > <http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Property/P130-shows-features-of/Version-6.2.1> > property > ’shows features of’. It has a property on property that allows you to > specify the kind of similarity. > > > > I attach an example of the proposed solution as a diagram. I guess the one > part of your problem that it does not address is the ur-imageness of the > one idealization. I guess the ur type did not historically exist but is the > composite based on scholarly research. Therefore it sounds like creation of > a type, see E83 > <http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Entity/E83-Type-Creation/Version-6.2.1> > Perhaps this is a picture for a type? Or you could make one instance of > Mark which is the ur instance and say that all the other instance are > related to it in particular as variant, but that doesn’t seem correct at > first thought. > > > > Best, > > > > George > > > > [image: cid:16e4b932ae91cc3c9f51] > > > > > > Thanks, > > Ethan > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > > > *CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Getty. Do not click > links or open attachments unless you verify the sender and know the content > is safe.* > > > > > > *CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Getty. Do not click > links or open attachments unless you verify the sender and know the content > is safe.* > > > >
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