Thanks!
Using E74 group (with P107.1 kind of member) to represent language
skills solves all our problems.
About time specific validity, we think it would be very useful to be
modeled in CRM, especially for P1 is identified by (identifies): very
often Groups (especially E40 Legal Body) and E44 Place Appellation have
a specific validities in time that would be interesting to represent
when describing archival information.
Thanks again for your replies,
Maria José
On 25/08/19 08:05, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote:
Dear all,
Dear all,
It is correct as Franco writes, that a group can be used to model the speakers
of a language.
The class E74 Group is a very strong mechanism and can be used to model almost
any relationship between actors, that is, the members of the group has the
relationship indicated by the type of the group. The classes
E85 Joining and E86 Leaving and the properties
P143 joined (was joined by): E39 Actor
P144 joined with (gained member by) E74 Group
P145 separated (left by) E39 Actor
P146 separated from (lost member by) E74 Group
enable us to model the time aspect.
At least in my opinion, the class E55 Tyoes and P2 has type can be used to
model persons abilities like speaking a language in the cases where time is not
a concern. On the other hand this timelessness give an impression that a type
indicate a trait or some immanent characteristics of a person. It is a
philosophical question whether language skills characterize a person in such a
way.
There is an ongoing issue 329 in CRM about states. In connection with this
issue there is a table with an overview: “CRM Properties that may have shorter
temporal validity than their domain and range”
http://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/table%20of%20issue%20329.docx
Among these P2 has type is listed. It is still not decided how this time
specific validity should be modelled in CRM.
Best,
Christian-Emil
________________________________________
From: Crm-sig <[email protected]> on behalf of Franco Niccolucci
<[email protected]>
Sent: 24 August 2019 19:45
To: Maria Jose de Almeida
Cc: [email protected]; "Runa, Lucília"; Barbedo, Francisco
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] EMAIL SUSPEITO: P72 has Language
Dear Maria, all
the problem comes from the fact that the CRM usually models what humans DO, not
what they ARE. To model the latter, it is therefore necessary to introduce an
event in which the person participates, as Thanasis suggested. What he proposes
is correct, but considering a language instrumental to the activity of learning
it sounds a bit awkward to my ear: common sense would consider so a handbook,
an app, a teacher etc.
Also, such activity may be problematic with native languages where an
intentional action (= activity) is difficult to attribute to a few months old
baby.
>From your description I believe that you are interested in documenting the
factual knowledge of a language, not that/how it was learnt, so I suggest the
following approach.
In this specific case you might use membership in an E74 Group, similar to what
is suggested in the scope note of E74 for ‘nationality'. Thus you would have
very large groupings of speakers of different languages, and speaking one of
them would correspond to being member of that specific group, e.g.
Maria P107 is member of E74 Group 'Portuguese speakers’.
Incidentally, this option would also enable you (if you wish) to distinguish
among the levels of knowledge of that language via P107.1 kind of member E55
Type ’native speaker’. Thus, also the following would hold for you: Maria P107
is member of E74 Group ‘English speakers’, but with P107.1 kind of member E55
Type ’second language speaker’. Further flexibility can be introduced with this
P107.1 if required, like “writer”, “translator”, etc.
Best
Franco
Prof. Franco Niccolucci
Director, VAST-LAB
PIN - U. of Florence
Scientific Coordinator
ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS
Editor-in-Chief
ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)
Piazza Ciardi 25
59100 Prato, Italy
Il giorno 23 ago 2019, alle ore 16:17, Maria Jose de Almeida
<[email protected]> ha scritto:
Dear all,
As some of you may know, I’m working in the Portuguese National Archives an we
are building a new data infrastructure using CIDOC-CRM for archival description.
When describing biographical information it’s common to state that some person was
fluent in some language, or languages, apart from his/her native one. Using current
archival descriptions standards [ISAD(G) 3.2.2; EAD <bioghist>] this is
represented within a text, usually a very long text string with information of
distinct natures. So far we have been able to decompose the different elements and
represent them adequately as instances of CIDOC-CRM classes and link them trough the
suitable properties. But we are struggling with this one...
We cannot link a Person (E21) to a language (E56) and neither use multiple
instantiation, as it has been suggested in other cases
(http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-258-p72-quantification), because Person
(E21) and Linguistic Object (E33) are disjoint.
The only way around I can think of is to consider someone’s speech as a
linguistic object and state that that person participated in the creation of
that linguistic object.
But it seams a rather odd solution as we would have to crate individuals for
someone’s speech in Portuguese, in French, in Russian, etc. and describe them
in a very broader manner. Because when it is stated that a person is fluent in
any of those languages, typically what is meant is that that person could
interact with other speakers of the same language, mainly trough an oral
discourse, or read written documents. Not exactly the same as creating
documents in a foreign language, situation which is much more straightforward
to represent.
Any thoughts that may help us?
Thanks!
--
Maria José de Almeida
Técnica Superior
Direção de Serviços de Inovação e Administração Eletrónica
Telefone (direto): 210 037 343
Telefone (geral): 210 037 100
[email protected]
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--
Maria José de Almeida
Técnica Superior
_Direção de Serviços de Inovação e Administração Eletrónica
_Telefone (direto): 210 037 343
_Telefone (geral): 210 037 100
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
