Dear all,
I agree with Christian-Emil, especially for the P2 has type property, as
a simple solution for the cases that we don't have enough information to
infer this capability or cases lacking temporal information - it reminds
me of the issue 277 and the example of the artist
Best,
Athina Kritsotaki
Στις 2019-08-25 10:05, Christian-Emil Smith Ore έγραψε:
Dear all,
Dear all,
It is correct as Franco writes, that a group can be used to model the
speakers of a language.
The class E74 Group is a very strong mechanism and can be used to
model almost any relationship between actors, that is, the members of
the group has the relationship indicated by the type of the group.
The classes
E85 Joining and E86 Leaving and the properties
P143 joined (was joined by): E39 Actol
P144 joined with (gained member by) E74 Group
P145 separated (left by) E39 Actor
P146 separated from (lost member by) E74 Group
enable us to model the time aspect.
At least in my opinion, the class E55 Tyoes and P2 has type can be
used to model persons abilities like speaking a language in the cases
where time is not a concern. On the other hand this timelessness give
an impression that a type indicate a trait or some immanent
characteristics of a person. It is a philosophical question whether
language skills characterize a person in such a way.
There is an ongoing issue 329 in CRM about states. In connection with
this issue there is a table with an overview: “CRM Properties that
may have shorter temporal validity than their domain and range”
http://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/table%20of%20issue%20329.docx
Among these P2 has type is listed. It is still not decided how this
time specific validity should be modelled in CRM.
Best,
Christian-Emil
________________________________________
From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Franco
Niccolucci <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>
Sent: 24 August 2019 19:45
To: Maria Jose de Almeida
Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr; "Runa, Lucília"; Barbedo, Francisco
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] EMAIL SUSPEITO: P72 has Language
Dear Maria, all
the problem comes from the fact that the CRM usually models what
humans DO, not what they ARE. To model the latter, it is therefore
necessary to introduce an event in which the person participates, as
Thanasis suggested. What he proposes is correct, but considering a
language instrumental to the activity of learning it sounds a bit
awkward to my ear: common sense would consider so a handbook, an app,
a teacher etc.
Also, such activity may be problematic with native languages where an
intentional action (= activity) is difficult to attribute to a few
months old baby.
From your description I believe that you are interested in documenting
the factual knowledge of a language, not that/how it was learnt, so I
suggest the following approach.
In this specific case you might use membership in an E74 Group,
similar to what is suggested in the scope note of E74 for
‘nationality'. Thus you would have very large groupings of speakers of
different languages, and speaking one of them would correspond to
being member of that specific group, e.g.
Maria P107 is member of E74 Group 'Portuguese speakers’.
Incidentally, this option would also enable you (if you wish) to
distinguish among the levels of knowledge of that language via P107.1
kind of member E55 Type ’native speaker’. Thus, also the following
would hold for you: Maria P107 is member of E74 Group ‘English
speakers’, but with P107.1 kind of member E55 Type ’second language
speaker’. Further flexibility can be introduced with this P107.1 if
required, like “writer”, “translator”, etc.
Best
Franco
Prof. Franco Niccolucci
Director, VAST-LAB
PIN - U. of Florence
Scientific Coordinator
ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS
Editor-in-Chief
ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)
Piazza Ciardi 25
59100 Prato, Italy
Il giorno 23 ago 2019, alle ore 16:17, Maria Jose de Almeida
<m-jose.alme...@dglab.gov.pt> ha scritto:
Dear all,
As some of you may know, I’m working in the Portuguese National
Archives an we are building a new data infrastructure using CIDOC-CRM
for archival description.
When describing biographical information it’s common to state that
some person was fluent in some language, or languages, apart from
his/her native one. Using current archival descriptions standards
[ISAD(G) 3.2.2; EAD <bioghist>] this is represented within a text,
usually a very long text string with information of distinct natures.
So far we have been able to decompose the different elements and
represent them adequately as instances of CIDOC-CRM classes and link
them trough the suitable properties. But we are struggling with this
one...
We cannot link a Person (E21) to a language (E56) and neither use
multiple instantiation, as it has been suggested in other cases
(http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-258-p72-quantification), because
Person (E21) and Linguistic Object (E33) are disjoint.
The only way around I can think of is to consider someone’s speech as
a linguistic object and state that that person participated in the
creation of that linguistic object.
But it seams a rather odd solution as we would have to crate
individuals for someone’s speech in Portuguese, in French, in Russian,
etc. and describe them in a very broader manner. Because when it is
stated that a person is fluent in any of those languages, typically
what is meant is that that person could interact with other speakers
of the same language, mainly trough an oral discourse, or read written
documents. Not exactly the same as creating documents in a foreign
language, situation which is much more straightforward to represent.
Any thoughts that may help us?
Thanks!
--
Maria José de Almeida
Técnica Superior
Direção de Serviços de Inovação e Administração Eletrónica
Telefone (direto): 210 037 343
Telefone (geral): 210 037 100
m-jose.alme...@dglab.gov.pt
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