Hi Christian-Emil et al., Regarding language in particular, my argument would be to make a new direct binary relation something like E21 Person pxx 'knew language’ E56 Language.
This relation, to my mind, would be parallel to E18 p45 consists of E57 Material There is indeed an event which we normally don’t know anything about (nor have a research interest in) of learning a language, which leads to the instance of E21 Person having a constitutional change in knowledge (Aristotle called it Hexis) whereby they then know a language. I believe this change in knowledge state is not something that changes the being of the individual as such (primary quality) which is what p2 has type would indicate but only creates a modification in the secondary qualities of the person. To loosely parallel existing CIDOC CRM modelling, a production event creates an object. In creating it, materials are used and it creates a new instance of Human Made Object. This instance of Human Made Object now consists of an E57 Material like ceramic. So qua what it is made of we say p45 consists of, qua what it functionally is, we say that it p2 has type ‘jug’ for example. p45 is not a sub property of has type because the relation is not one of “being" the material but rather having the substance of material x. Regarding time problems, the instance of E21 Person did not always know the language. That being said when we declare a relation like ‘knew language’ we state that it was the case that there was a moment of the existence of this E21 Person where the person had the knowledge (had the hexis) of knowing x. It is actually true for the whole lifetime of the entity that at sometime it knew language x just in case in real life at sometime in its life it knew language x. I think that in the interest of not endlessly filling up CRMBase, it might be better to put such an addition into CRMSoc. The above suggestion does not mean to argue that we couldn’t or shouldn’t also model learning events or use events with regards to language but rather that there is a basic function that is ontologically correct to assert that a Person knows a language which fits a real world use case. Best, George > On Aug 28, 2019, at 4:17 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore <c.e.s....@iln.uio.no> > wrote: > > Dear George & all, > Your text and sketch of a solution is indeed interesting. I agree that > (natural, human) languages is a special case. Animals are currently not in > the scope of CRM. I also agree that there is (currently) no links between an > instance 'English (language)' of E55 Type and an instance 'speaker/writer > ofEnglish (language)' of E55 Type. Should such a connection be in the type > system (in the fringes or outside CRM)? If we introduce a new property from > E21 Person what is the range, E55 Type? > > Best, > Christian-Emil > From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of George Bruseker > <george.bruse...@gmail.com> > Sent: 27 August 2019 10:53 > To: Franco Niccolucci > Cc: crm-sig; Runa, Lucília; ste...@paveprime.org; Barbedo, Francisco > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P72 has Language > > Dear all, > > Sticking to the question of documenting when we have information that someone > knew a language or had a skill in a technique, I reiterate that I believe > really need a new property and not to use p2 has type. > > p2 has type is a good solution for classifying a kind of phenomena or for > specializing a class when it does not require a new relation in the ontology. > It's a very useful tool but it does not work for what we need to document > here. > > The semantics of saying that someone had knowledge in a language can indeed > be interpreted as E21 Person p2 has type E55 "English Speaker". It could not, > however, be typed E21 person p2 has type E57 Language "English". Why? Because > the E57 Type classifies the phenomenon of language not of people. The E55 is > relative to the phenomenon it classifies/specializes. People are not language > nor vice versa. One of the things we would want to make possible in linking > an E21 person to an E57 Language is to create consistent and potentially > serendipitous relations between an instance of person and an instance of > language. (As one of Rob's examples: the work used E57 English and the person > who encountered it E5 was a knower of E57 English, ergo, they could but did > not necessarily read it!) This would not be facilitated by saying E21 Person > p2 has type E55 "English Speaker" because there are no given semantic > connections between the instance "English Speaker" which classified a person > as a kind and the instance E57 Language "English" which classifies linguistic > phenomena. > > The semantic intent, I would argue, in the schemas that document fields like > language and technique is often not to say that this person is of type > "English Speaker" or even of type "Painter" but that they have/had knowledge > of English (linguistic phenomenon) or Painting (technical phenomenon). > Because someone knows or uses a technique does make them someone who would > generally be classified (with regards to official documentation) as being an > exemplar of that language/technique. So as Rob is not necessarily a 'French > Speaker" though he knows French, George is not necessarily a Painter, though > he may have a knowledge of painting notable enough to document. (It is > counterfactual, I don't even have this knowledge but for lack of a better > example) > > Human beings are an objective phenomenon that can be witnessed and have > certain behaviours and potentials which other phenomena do not, one of which > includes the ability to know. We should be able to document this objective > phenomenon because it falls within scope. The kind of knowledge in question > is not an act of knowing (temporal) but the result of having learned and now > acquired a new understanding which allows the human being to act in the world > in a new skillful way in certain situations. This knowledge remains, more or > less present, in the knower without any particular activation once they have > acquired it (forgetting and rustiness not withstanding). It is simply one of > their properties. > > It's all a long winded way of saying that we need a relation between E21 > Person (at least) to indicate that they have a knowledge. There should be a > binary property for this (which could then be extended) which allows one to > make the simple statement, A knows B. This would not be a sub property of P2 > has type, but a new property. I'm not sure if it would have an existing > superproperty. My original suggestion would be to stick to language and then > go for a super class, although the question of technique also arises. > > The other issues Rob and Franco raise about documenting fiat groups/sets are > very important but perhaps we could make them another discussion and issue > (when it comes time to formulating something particular for voting on at > SIG). > > About the idea of making language a conceptual object, I think we would have > to have a lot of discussion and reflection on that, because it seems like a > large metaphysical issue. Language is obviously very particular to human > being, Aristotle called us the rational (logos) animal. But it is not clear > that logos is the invention of human being or that it can be said to be > something that we can use in a utilitarian way like a pot or a mould. It > seems more like a medium through which certain types of communicative act > can/do occur. Anyhow, also a fun discussion but I think having a E21 person > "has knowledge or / was use of language" X property could be a modest first > step that is semantically robust to a real use case and can be extended by > further modelling without likely breaks to monotonic development. > > Best, > > George > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 1:19 AM Franco Niccolucci > <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com <mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Steve, > > something for your breakfast tomorrow morning. > > “Knowing” a language is not the same as “using” it. The case started from > documentation stating that somebody knows a language, but not reporting any > use, which is just potential but not necessarily actual. For example, I know > Latin pretty well, but I have very few - if any - opportunities of using it; > on the contrary, I do not know Japanese but sometimes say “sayonara” and > “arigato” appropriately. In these Portuguese archives I would be correctly > recorded as “Latin speaker” but not as “Japanese speaker”. > Your solution instead refers to “using" the language as implied by P16 and > would state exactly the opposite. > > I share with you the hate for negative searches, for the reasons you clearly > explain. > > Bene valeas placideque quiescas, Stephane (*) > > Francus > > (*) in order to enable you in using P16 for my knowledge of Latin > > Prof. Franco Niccolucci > Director, VAST-LAB > PIN - U. of Florence > Scientific Coordinator > ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS > > Editor-in-Chief > ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) > > Piazza Ciardi 25 > 59100 Prato, Italy > > > > Il giorno 26 ago 2019, alle ore 23:32, Stephen Stead <ste...@paveprime.org > > <mailto:ste...@paveprime.org>> ha scritto: > > > > Just thinking about this after an interesting game of Railroad Revolution. > > It strike me that it might be useful to consider language as a Conceptual > > Object and an Actors use of it would be an instance of E7 Activity P2 has > > type E55 Type {Communication} P16 used specific object E28 Conceptual > > Object. > > E55 Type {Communication} could be sub-divided into written, spoken, reading > > etc as necessary. > > The other stuff that Rob mentions is rather different and at first glance > > looks a lot like the floruit from FRBR which became F51 Pursuit. > > I am concerned about building optimisations of properties that are intended > > for making searches about negative things like “not known to speak Latin” > > as this is a nasty place to be: absence of Knowledge versus knowledge of > > absence…… > > > > Use of a technique is that also the use of an immaterial object? > > > > Anyway off to bed now. Very interesting question > > TTFN > > SdS > > > > > > > > > > Stephen Stead > > Tel +44 20 8668 3075 > > Mob +44 7802 755 013 > > E-mail ste...@paveprime.com <mailto:ste...@paveprime.com> > > LinkedIn Profile https://www.linkedin.com/in/steads/ > > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/steads/> > > > > From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr > > <mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr>> On Behalf Of Robert Sanderson > > Sent: 26 August 2019 18:54 > > To: Franco Niccolucci <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com > > <mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>>; George Bruseker > > <george.bruse...@gmail.com <mailto:george.bruse...@gmail.com>> > > Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>; "Runa, Lucília" > > <lucilia.r...@dglab.gov.pt <mailto:lucilia.r...@dglab.gov.pt>>; Barbedo, > > Francisco <francisco.barb...@dglab.gov.pt > > <mailto:francisco.barb...@dglab.gov.pt>> > > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P72 has Language > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > I agree with the concerns about modeling the activity of learning a > > language as a substitute for the ability to communicate in a language. On > > paper I have a Ph.D. in French, so surely I’m fluent? Far far from it, as > > you doubtless noted in Paris 😊 I also agree that modeling as a Group is > > problematic for the same reason as modeling gender as a Group – the > > requirement for concerted action. Finally, I agree with Franco’s concern > > about the narrowness of the scope to only Language. We also have > > information about the skills and knowledge of individuals or groups such as > > Techniques employed. > > > > I would not want to model a complete skills management HR system (or video > > game!), but having some pattern for expressing relevant, observed abilities > > would be valuable for searching. Use cases would include: > > · Search for Human Made Objects (HMOs) not classified as Paintings, > > that were produced by an actor that is known for their ability in a > > painting technique. (e.g. drawings by Van Gogh) > > · Search for HMOs that carry a text in a language that is not known > > by the owner of the object (e.g. manuscript in latin owned by someone not > > known to speak latin) > > · Search for possible attributions for a text in a known language, > > filtering for people known to speak that language. > > > > In terms of solutions, we might consider: > > · A super-class for Group (Set?) that allows non-Persons to be > > aggregated, and does not have the intentionality of action requirement. > > o This would enable further modeling patterns, beyond Group and Curated > > Holding. > > · A property similar to George’s suggestion that has E55 Type as > > its range to include Technique or other types. > > o This would enable more specific recording of skills of an Actor without > > implying any particular event > > · A broad usage / known for activity without times more precise > > than the life dates of the actor that encompasses all uses of the language. > > o This would enable adding timespans when known, and perhaps be a pattern > > for other similar information such as when a person is known as an author, > > but is also a painter > > > > We are also modeling our archives at the moment using CRM – it would be > > very interesting to compare the results, as there are several issues that > > we do not have a solution for that we are particularly happy with. The > > major area of concern is the association of properties not at the item > > level, but at the aggregate level meaning that some members of the set have > > this property. When this can be expressed as data rather than just > > descriptive text, we are worried about the false precision. The collections > > include both digital and physical objects, which compounds the issue. > > > > Rob > > > > From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr > > <mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr>> on behalf of Franco Niccolucci > > <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com <mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>> > > Date: Monday, August 26, 2019 at 8:26 AM > > To: George Bruseker <george.bruse...@gmail.com > > <mailto:george.bruse...@gmail.com>> > > Cc: "crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>" > > <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>>, ""Runa, Lucília"" > > <lucilia.r...@dglab.gov.pt <mailto:lucilia.r...@dglab.gov.pt>>, "Barbedo, > > Francisco" <francisco.barb...@dglab.gov.pt > > <mailto:francisco.barb...@dglab.gov.pt>> > > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P72 has Language > > > > Dear George, all > > > > I think that there are two issues (at least) here. > > > > The first one concerns the identity criteria of this class. This discussion > > started from an issue related to the latter. In this case the grouping of > > English speakers, for example, is identified as “those people whose bio > > states so”. It does not matter if they really speak/spoke English of not, > > this concerns the veridicality of their bio, which is another story. > > > > So the grouping of English speakers is precisely identified. This is not > > always the case. > > > > This issue is a particular case of a more general issue concerning fiat vs > > bona-fide objects, to use the terminology introduced by Smith and Varzi > > about geographical (but not only) objects. As you may remember, fiat ones > > have precise boundaries, bona-fide don’t. For groupings, belongingness has > > the same alternatives, and in most cases what we may call “fiat > > belongingness” is based on a formal definition, like a listing, > > mathematical criteria, a decree and so on. There are thus groupings for > > which it is easy (feasible?) to assess belongingness, others for which it > > is not, others for which it is unclear. The crm-sig mailing list is an > > example of a fiat group defined by listing, as is the group of the citizens > > of Italy at the time I am writing this email, defined by the law and > > recorded in the civil registry. > > Nationality - mentioned in the E74 scope note - could belong the uncertain > > case: if you consider nationality as the formal status of being citizen of > > a country, it is a fiat criterion. But there may be cases in which the > > nationality may be uncertain. I don’t want to make examples of today as > > they may be politically sensitive, but if you had asked in 1861 to people > > from Venice their nationality they would answer “Italian” although their > > formal nationality was "Austro-Hungarian”. Thanks to the principle of > > self-determination, the number of such cases is much rarer today than it > > was in the 19th century, with a few notable exceptions that we all have in > > mind. However, 99.999% of the cases refer to formal nationality so the > > above is just a pedantic discussion. > > > > Language(s) spoken is much more difficult to assess: what turns the > > bona-fide boundary between speakers and non-speakers into a fiat one in > > this case? A certificate issued by a school? Self-assessment? I think that > > the case that raised this discussion may be easily solved as I mentioned > > above. But I would be cautious to use it in other cases. > > > > For the second issue, modelling this grouping as an E74, I understand > > George’s concern about the use of E74 Group, which is a subclass of E39 > > Actor and thus is required to “[collectively] have the potential to perform > > intentional actions of kinds for which someone may be held responsible”, > > what seems doubtful for speakers of a language. In my opinion this > > requirement for intentional actions could be considered in a very broad > > sense; for language, avoiding sexist terminology in English could be an > > example - stretching it a bit, I admit. But otherwise, how can we model > > collectivities like this one and others such as “archaeologists”, > > “Buddhists” “Real Madrid fans” etc ? > > > > Finally, George’s proposal is nice but addresses only the language issue > > and not other groupings/features of the same type, i.e. collectivities > > based on some common characteristic, but not required to be able to > > collectively perform intentional actions, for example illiterate people. > > > > Best > > > > Franco > > > > Prof. Franco Niccolucci > > Director, VAST-LAB > > PIN - U. of Florence > > Scientific Coordinator > > ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS > > > > Editor-in-Chief > > ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) > > > > Piazza Ciardi 25 > > 59100 Prato, Italy > > > > > >> Il giorno 26 ago 2019, alle ore 08:29, George Bruseker > >> <george.bruse...@gmail.com <mailto:george.bruse...@gmail.com>> ha scritto: > >> > >> Dear all, > >> > >> In the context of multiple modelling projects, I have run into the need to > >> model the fact that an individual is known to have spoken/used a language. > >> It is a common attribute recorded of an individual in an information > >> system. Often, the only information we have / is known, is that someone > >> 'had language' x or y. The fact that someone is a user / speaker of a > >> language is a potentially directly observable phenomenon. I would thus > >> argue that it can be considered a direct property of an instance of E21 > >> Person. To model competency (native, very good etc.) and/or aspect > >> (written/oral/reading), it might also be necessary to add a .1 property or > >> two. > >> > >> Modelling how a person acquired a language, when they lost it etc. would > >> require looking at temporal classes, but in the information systems I have > >> seen this is usually not recorded so is not be an immediate modelling > >> need. While I see the logic behind the group modelling pattern, it would > >> seem to go against the idea that a group self-identifies and can in > >> principle act as one. While I think one can make the case for a nation to > >> potentially act as one unit (via their institutions), I don't think that > >> you will get all English, Italian, or French speakers (separately) to > >> create a joint programme of action. The E7 solution is problematic because > >> we don't know any particular event of the using/speaking of language, or > >> rather we are not primarily interested in it. If we wanted to use an event > >> like that, it would have to be something like, language speaking > >> phase/event (where we meant the long term activity of continuously using > >> the language), which is probably hard to know in most cases anyhow. > >> > >> I would thus like to propose to make an issue to discuss the addition of a > >> new binary property, something like: E21 Person 'was user of' E57 > >> Language. The justification is that it is an empirically verifiable > >> property that adheres to a human actor and is regularly recorded in > >> documentation schema for person data. It seems like it might be good to > >> model this in CRMSoc. I would agree that eventually one might want to > >> model the acquisition of the language or the temporal extent of when one > >> was a user of a language. This could built off of the simple property. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> George > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:12 AM Christian-Emil Smith Ore > >> <c.e.s....@iln.uio.no <mailto:c.e.s....@iln.uio.no>> wrote: > >> Dear all, > >> > >> Dear all, > >> > >> It is correct as Franco writes, that a group can be used to model the > >> speakers of a language. > >> > >> The class E74 Group is a very strong mechanism and can be used to model > >> almost any relationship between actors, that is, the members of the group > >> has the relationship indicated by the type of the group. The classes > >> E85 Joining and E86 Leaving and the properties > >> > >> P143 joined (was joined by): E39 Actor > >> P144 joined with (gained member by) E74 Group > >> > >> P145 separated (left by) E39 Actor > >> P146 separated from (lost member by) E74 Group > >> > >> enable us to model the time aspect. > >> > >> At least in my opinion, the class E55 Tyoes and P2 has type can be used to > >> model persons abilities like speaking a language in the cases where time > >> is not a concern. On the other hand this timelessness give an impression > >> that a type indicate a trait or some immanent characteristics of a person. > >> It is a philosophical question whether language skills characterize a > >> person in such a way. > >> > >> There is an ongoing issue 329 in CRM about states. In connection with this > >> issue there is a table with an overview: “CRM Properties that may have > >> shorter temporal validity than their domain and range” > >> http://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/table%20of%20issue%20329.docx > >> <http://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/table%20of%20issue%20329.docx> > >> Among these P2 has type is listed. It is still not decided how this time > >> specific validity should be modelled in CRM. > >> > >> Best, > >> Christian-Emil > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr > >> <mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr>> on behalf of Franco Niccolucci > >> <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com <mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>> > >> Sent: 24 August 2019 19:45 > >> To: Maria Jose de Almeida > >> Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>; "Runa, Lucília"; > >> Barbedo, Francisco > >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] EMAIL SUSPEITO: P72 has Language > >> > >> Dear Maria, all > >> > >> the problem comes from the fact that the CRM usually models what humans > >> DO, not what they ARE. To model the latter, it is therefore necessary to > >> introduce an event in which the person participates, as Thanasis > >> suggested. What he proposes is correct, but considering a language > >> instrumental to the activity of learning it sounds a bit awkward to my > >> ear: common sense would consider so a handbook, an app, a teacher etc. > >> Also, such activity may be problematic with native languages where an > >> intentional action (= activity) is difficult to attribute to a few months > >> old baby. > >> > >> From your description I believe that you are interested in documenting the > >> factual knowledge of a language, not that/how it was learnt, so I suggest > >> the following approach. > >> > >> In this specific case you might use membership in an E74 Group, similar to > >> what is suggested in the scope note of E74 for ‘nationality'. Thus you > >> would have very large groupings of speakers of different languages, and > >> speaking one of them would correspond to being member of that specific > >> group, e.g. > >> Maria P107 is member of E74 Group 'Portuguese speakers’. > >> Incidentally, this option would also enable you (if you wish) to > >> distinguish among the levels of knowledge of that language via P107.1 kind > >> of member E55 Type ’native speaker’. Thus, also the following would hold > >> for you: Maria P107 is member of E74 Group ‘English speakers’, but with > >> P107.1 kind of member E55 Type ’second language speaker’. Further > >> flexibility can be introduced with this P107.1 if required, like “writer”, > >> “translator”, etc. > >> > >> Best > >> > >> Franco > >> > >> > >> Prof. Franco Niccolucci > >> Director, VAST-LAB > >> PIN - U. of Florence > >> Scientific Coordinator > >> ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS > >> > >> Editor-in-Chief > >> ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) > >> > >> Piazza Ciardi 25 > >> 59100 Prato, Italy > >> > >> > >> > Il giorno 23 ago 2019, alle ore 16:17, Maria Jose de Almeida > >> > <m-jose.alme...@dglab.gov.pt <mailto:m-jose.alme...@dglab.gov.pt>> ha > >> > scritto: > >> > > >> > > >> > Dear all, > >> > > >> > As some of you may know, I’m working in the Portuguese National Archives > >> > an we are building a new data infrastructure using CIDOC-CRM for > >> > archival description. > >> > When describing biographical information it’s common to state that some > >> > person was fluent in some language, or languages, apart from his/her > >> > native one. Using current archival descriptions standards [ISAD(G) > >> > 3.2.2; EAD <bioghist>] this is represented within a text, usually a very > >> > long text string with information of distinct natures. So far we have > >> > been able to decompose the different elements and represent them > >> > adequately as instances of CIDOC-CRM classes and link them trough the > >> > suitable properties. But we are struggling with this one... > >> > We cannot link a Person (E21) to a language (E56) and neither use > >> > multiple instantiation, as it has been suggested in other cases > >> > (http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-258-p72-quantification > >> > <http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-258-p72-quantification>), because > >> > Person (E21) and Linguistic Object (E33) are disjoint. > >> > The only way around I can think of is to consider someone’s speech as a > >> > linguistic object and state that that person participated in the > >> > creation of that linguistic object. > >> > But it seams a rather odd solution as we would have to crate individuals > >> > for someone’s speech in Portuguese, in French, in Russian, etc. and > >> > describe them in a very broader manner. Because when it is stated that a > >> > person is fluent in any of those languages, typically what is meant is > >> > that that person could interact with other speakers of the same > >> > language, mainly trough an oral discourse, or read written documents. > >> > Not exactly the same as creating documents in a foreign language, > >> > situation which is much more straightforward to represent. > >> > > >> > Any thoughts that may help us? > >> > Thanks! > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Maria José de Almeida > >> > Técnica Superior > >> > > >> > Direção de Serviços de Inovação e Administração Eletrónica > >> > Telefone (direto): 210 037 343 > >> > Telefone (geral): 210 037 100 > >> > m-jose.alme...@dglab.gov.pt <mailto:m-jose.alme...@dglab.gov.pt> > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Crm-sig mailing list > >> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > >> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > >> > <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Crm-sig mailing list > >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > >> <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Crm-sig mailing list > >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > >> <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Crm-sig mailing list > >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > >> <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig> > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Getty. 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