Unsurprisingly, I agree with George. The quantification of P72 has language is many to many, necessary.
Meaning that a Linguistic Object can have many languages, and each Language can be the language of many Linguistic Objects. So, if you wanted to say that my name is "Robert Sanderson", and that Name P72_has_language English and the same entity P72_has_language French ... no problem. That they are pronounced differently in those two languages (Roh-bit vs Roe-bear) is interesting, but not a symbolic (nor propositional) concern. Combined with the open world assumption, saying that my name is "Robert Sanderson" in English and French doesn't preclude it from also being the symbolic representation of my name in German or Dutch. So per George's response, I think there's no philosophical issue. Per mine, there's no technical issue. And per previously, there's no scoping / inclusion logistics issue. I assume the next step is to propose a scope note and formal definition? Rob On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 3:10 PM George Bruseker via Crm-sig < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Dear Martin, > > I don't see an ontological problem here. One name can be used by / in many > languages. If it is, that can be documented. > > >> The question was not if names can belong to language, or if langauges >> create names. It was how this is unambiguously defined. >> > > It isn't our job as ontologists to unambiguously define the instances of > things in the world. This is for the domain specialists. > > >> >> >> The example below is what I feared. The fact that the arabic script is >> mainly used for Arabic, does itr make a *transcript *of an English name >> "Arabic?" why not Farsi? I ask here for the Librarians to express their >> opinion. >> > > Who documents the object, documents their knowledge and, hopefully, > thereby, the state of affairs in the world. > > I don't understand the Farsi aspect of the above question. Why > would transliterating a name into English from Arabic make it Farsi? > Librarians? > > Here's a person with a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes > > His name is ابن رشد in Arabic and also أبو الوليد محمد ابن احمد ابن رشد. > > With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we can't. > > His name in English is usually Averroes and also he is known as Ibn Rushd. > > With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we cant. > > He has a transliterated name: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn Rušd . > Is that his name in Arabic or English or no language? I don't know. Both? > Maybe. I'm not a scholar of philosopher's names and it's not my province to > judge. This is not the domain of the ontologist but the specialist in > onomastics or the appropriate discipline. > > > >> >> Why is Douglas Adams not "German"? I would use it in German exactly in >> this form. >> > > Then put in the KB for this name 'has language English' and 'has language > German' and the problem is solved. > > >> >> >> But "Adams" I think is a last name exclusive to English, as Dörr to >> German. >> >> What is the language of "Martin", "Martino", of >> >> Martin: Identical in English, Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Norwegian, >> Danish, Swedish? >> > > If that is what the expert in onomastics thinks, yes. Not an ontological > issue. We provide the semantic framework, they do the researching. > > >> Martino in Italian, Rumanian? >> >> From Wikipedia: "Joshua". >> >> *Josua* or *Jozua* is a male given name and a variation of the Hebrew >> name Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>.[1] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-1>[2] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-2> Notable people with >> this name include: >> >> - Josua Bühler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_B%C3%BChler> >> (1895–1983), Swiss philatelist >> - Josua de Grave <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_de_Grave> >> (1643–1712), Dutch draughtsman and painter >> - Josua Harrsch <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Harrsch> >> (1669–1719), German missionary >> - Josua Hoffalt <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Hoffalt> (born >> 1984), French ballet dancer >> - Josua Järvinen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_J%C3%A4rvinen> >> (1871–1948), Finnish politician >> - Josua Koroibulu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Koroibulu> >> (born 1982), Fijian rugby league footballer >> - Josua Heschel Kuttner >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Heschel_Kuttner> (c. 1803–1878), >> Jewish Orthodox scholar and rabbi >> - Josua Lindahl <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Lindahl> >> (1844–1912), Swedish-American geologist and paleontologist >> - Josua Maaler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Maaler> >> (1529–1599), Swiss pastor and lexicographer >> - Josua Mateinaniu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mateinaniu> ( >> fl. 1835), Fijian missionary >> - Josua Mejías <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mej%C3%ADas> >> (born 1997), Venezuelan footballer >> - Johann Josua Mosengel >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Josua_Mosengel> (1663–1731), >> German pipe organ builder >> - Jozua Naudé (disambiguation) >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozua_Naud%C3%A9_(disambiguation)>, >> several people >> - Josua Swanepoel <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Swanepoel> >> (born 1983), South African cricketer >> - Josua Tuisova <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Tuisova> (born >> 1994), Fijian rugby union player >> - Josua Vakurunabili >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vakurunabili> (born 1992), >> Fijian rugby union player >> - Josua Vici <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vici> (born 1994), >> Fijian rugby union player >> >> Following scripts, only *יְהוֹשֻׁעַ >> <https://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe?type=HB&target=Y%3Ahwos%5Eu%5E%22a%5E>* >> would be Hebrew, but Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> >> English? >> > > This is a question for the knowledge base. The English speaker writing > this article thinks that "Josua" applies to these people. It is up to them > to instantiate an instance of the class, call it Hebrew and then assign it > as a name of those individuals. If someone wants to dispute this, they can > use negative properties. I don't know if the above wikipedia article is > true or not, but I would like to be able to represent that data in the KB > so that I could try to find out. > > So, not sure why that's a blocker. > > Best, > > George > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > -- Rob Sanderson Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata Yale University
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