Dear Martin, all
Sorry to intervene so late in this interesting exchange, I was away for
some days and I'm going through my emails now.
I encountered the same questions while working a few years ago in a
history project interested in the evolution of the use of names and
surnames.
The approach of the project was similar to the one presented by Martin
below and amounted to saying that it is difficult to state to which
language a first name, or surname, belongs in itself, except for some
cases or if we consider the region of origin, but what is relevant is
that this specific string of characters is used at a given time (and
attested in the sources) in a language or in another (i.e. in a society
speaking this language) to identify a person or an object.
To capture the information envisaged in the project in the sense of this
approach I decided to stick to the substance of crm:E41 Appellation class:
"This class comprises signs, either meaningful or not, or arrangements
of signs following a specific syntax, that are used or can be used to
refer to and identify a specific instance of some class or category
within a certain context. Instances of E41 Appellation do not identify
things by their meaning, even if they happen to have one, but _instead
by convention, tradition, or agreement_." (CRM 6.2).
and to add in what has become the SDHSS CRM unofficial extension the
sdh:C11 Appellation in a Language
<https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> class.
This class has as you'll see a clear social, i.e. intentional flavor,
and captures the information that some appellation is considered as a
valid appellation of a thing in a language (i.e. society speaking his
language) during an attested time-span.
This was also an attempt to cope with the frbroo:F52 Name Use Activity
issue:
413 Pursuit and Name Use Activity to CRMsoc
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-413-pursuit-and-name-use-activity-to-crmsoc>
573 CRMsoc & F51 Pursuit & F52 Name Use Activity
<https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-573-crmsoc-f51-pursuit-f52-name-use-activity>
which is somewhat slowed down by the ongoing exchanges around the nature
and substance of the social world as foundation of the CRMsoc extension.
But one could easily provide another substance to an /Appellation in a
Language/ class making it a Name Use Activity (in a Language) class (and
subclass of crm:E13 Attribute Assignment
<https://ontome.net/class/13/namespace/1> or crm:E7 Activity).
This would be in my opinion a good way of coping with the wish expressed
by George at the beginning of this exchange to "make [this kind of
classes] full classes in the standard so that they are fully vetted and
controlled. It is a fundamental class. It should be in the standard in
the first place", wish that I definitely share. And also to stick, as
far as I can understand, to the modelling principles reminded by Martin.
And it would also finally solve the issues still open, to my knowledge,
concerning the original FRBR-oo class.
Best
Francesco
Le 09.11.22 à 20:13, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit :
Dear both,
The question was not if names can belong to language, or if langauges
create names. It was how this is unambiguously defined.
The example below is what I feared. The fact that the arabic script is
mainly used for Arabic, does itr make a *transcript *of an English
name "Arabic?" why not Farsi? I ask here for the Librarians to
express their opinion.
Why is Douglas Adams not "German"? I would use it in German exactly in
this form.
But "Adams" I think is a last name exclusive to English, as Dörr to
German.
What is the language of "Martin", "Martino", of
Martin: Identical in English, Spanish, French, Dutch, German,
Norwegian, Danish, Swedish? Martino in Italian, Rumanian?
From Wikipedia: "Joshua".
*Josua* or *Jozua* is a male given name and a variation of the Hebrew
name Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>.^[1]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-1> ^[2]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-2> Notable people with
this name include:
* Josua Bühler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_B%C3%BChler>
(1895–1983), Swiss philatelist
* Josua de Grave <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_de_Grave>
(1643–1712), Dutch draughtsman and painter
* Josua Harrsch <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Harrsch>
(1669–1719), German missionary
* Josua Hoffalt <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Hoffalt> (born
1984), French ballet dancer
* Josua Järvinen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_J%C3%A4rvinen>
(1871–1948), Finnish politician
* Josua Koroibulu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Koroibulu>
(born 1982), Fijian rugby league footballer
* Josua Heschel Kuttner
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Heschel_Kuttner>
(c. 1803–1878), Jewish Orthodox scholar and rabbi
* Josua Lindahl <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Lindahl>
(1844–1912), Swedish-American geologist and paleontologist
* Josua Maaler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Maaler>
(1529–1599), Swiss pastor and lexicographer
* Josua Mateinaniu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mateinaniu>
(fl. 1835), Fijian missionary
* Josua Mejías <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mej%C3%ADas>
(born 1997), Venezuelan footballer
* Johann Josua Mosengel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Josua_Mosengel> (1663–1731),
German pipe organ builder
* Jozua Naudé (disambiguation)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozua_Naud%C3%A9_(disambiguation)>,
several people
* Josua Swanepoel <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Swanepoel>
(born 1983), South African cricketer
* Josua Tuisova <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Tuisova> (born
1994), Fijian rugby union player
* Josua Vakurunabili
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vakurunabili> (born 1992),
Fijian rugby union player
* Josua Vici <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vici> (born 1994),
Fijian rugby union player
Following scripts, only /יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
<https://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe?type=HB&target=Y%3Ahwos%5Eu%5E%22a%5E>/
would be Hebrew, but Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>
English?
For example,
The language of the name of Douglas Adams (the Person) that
has the symbolic content of "Douglas Adams" is English.
The language of the name of Douglas Adams (the Person) that
has the symbolic content of "دوغلاس آدمز" is Arabic.
These are clearly expressed in a language, and appellations,
and symbolic.
Or:
eg:Q42 a crm:E21_Person ;
crm:P1_is_identified_by [
a crm:E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation ;
P190_has_symbolic_content "Douglas Adams" ;
P72_has_language <uri-for-English> ]
crm:P1_is_identified_by [
a crm:E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation ;
P190_has_symbolic_content "دوغلاس آدمز" ;
P72_has_language <uri-for-Arabic> ]
E33_E41 is a super-class of E35, which is semantically
narrower through its scope note as applying only to "works",
and "can be clearly identified as titles due to their form".
I don't think anyone would say that "Douglas Adams" is the
"title" of the person.
Rob
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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