Re: [Crm-sig] error in RDFS for 7.1.1 for the class that is a subclass of E41 and E33

Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:22:15 -0800 

Dear Gordon,
"The Library of Congress has only recently stopped assigning gender to the referant of a name", 

That is interesting!

I'd kindly ask for your expert opinion, about the "language" of a name.


We had introduced the language property of a title because of the 
frequent cases of words of a natural language and their translations.


Here, my question is:


A) In library practice, do you associate a name with a language, and 
what would be the rules.



George wrote: "He has a transliterated name: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn 
ʾAḥmad Ibn Rušd . Is that his name in Arabic or English or no language? 
I don't know. Both? Maybe. I'm not a scholar of philosopher's names and 
it's not my province to judge. This is not the domain of the ontologist 
but the specialist in onomastics or the appropriate discipline. "



I absolutely disagree with that. Can transliteration to another script 
change and produce a language-specificity? That is definitely an 
ontological question. Otherwise, we have no concept at all for this 
property.



My example of Joshua had another purpose: The spelling and pronunciation 
"Josua" is the one used in German, but not exclusively. "Joshua" in 
English (and?), may be Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> in 
Hebrew written in Latin script? If this is the case, they are variants 
shaped and used in different language groups. That would justify a 
language-specificity.



B) If the meaning of the language property we are seeking for is not the 
language of the name, but the suitable use in a language group of the 
name for the named instance, then, it is a subproperty of P1 and not 
P72. Such as "is typically identified in English by...etc. That *is *an 
ontological question.


All the best,

Martin

On 11/10/2022 1:21 PM, Gordon Dunsire wrote:

All
A librarian expresses an initial opinion:

What about gender of a name? E.g. "Gordon" is male; "Gordana" is 
female. The Library of Congress has only recently stopped assigning 
gender to the referant of a name, which has resulted in howlers like 
"Robert Galbraith" (pseudonym of J.K. Rowling) is a male because the 
name is 'male'.
RDA: resource description and access is an implementation of the IFLA 
Library Reference Model (entity-relationship version). Names and 
titles are given equal treatment; the only difference between a 'name' 
and a 'title' is that 'title' is the traditional word for the 'name' 
of an information resource. Since LRM/RDA has four 'resource 
entities', we have 'title of work', 'title of expression', 'title of 
manifestation', and 'title of item'; all other entities have 'name": 
'name of place', 'name of time-span', 'name of agent', etc.
This discussion exposes a further difference, but it is not absolute. 
A 'title' is usually composed of words, etc. taken from a natural 
language: "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" uses French words; "The treachery 
of images" uses English words; "La trahison des images" is back to 
French; "The wind and the song" is back to English ... On the other 
hand, a 'name' is usually composed of words, etc. that have no other 
use in natural language. But there are many counter-examples, and the 
distinction may not exist in a specific language group (e.g. Chinese?).
Although RDA has a property for 'has language of nomen' ('nomen' being 
the generic term for 'name/title', 'access point', and 'identifier'), 
the expectation is that it only has utility for 'title', but not 'name'.
The sibling property 'has script of nomen' has utility for names and 
titles. It is important for transliterations.

On 09/11/2022 20:02 GMT George Bruseker via Crm-sig 
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote:

Dear Martin,

I don't see an ontological problem here. One name can be used by / in 
many languages. If it is, that can be documented.



    The question was not if names can belong to language, or if
    langauges create names. It was how this is unambiguously defined.


It isn't our job as ontologists to unambiguously define the instances 
of things in the world. This is for the domain specialists.




    The example below is what I feared. The fact that the arabic
    script is mainly used for Arabic, does itr make a *transcript *of
    an English name "Arabic?" why not Farsi?  I ask here for the
    Librarians to express their opinion.


Who documents the object, documents their knowledge and, hopefully, 
thereby, the state of affairs in the world.
I don't understand the Farsi aspect of the above question. Why 
would transliterating a name into English from Arabic make it Farsi? 
Librarians?

Here's a person with a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes
His name is ابن رشد in Arabic and also أبو الوليد محمد ابن احمد ابن رشد.
With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we can't.

His name in English is usually Averroes and also he is known as Ibn 
Rushd.

With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we cant.

He has a transliterated name: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn 
Rušd . Is that his name in Arabic or English or no language? I don't 
know. Both? Maybe. I'm not a scholar of philosopher's names and it's 
not my province to judge. This is not the domain of the ontologist 
but the specialist in onomastics or the appropriate discipline.



    Why is Douglas Adams not "German"? I would use it in German
    exactly in this form.


Then put in the KB for this name 'has language English' and 'has 
language German' and the problem is solved.




    But "Adams" I  think is a last name exclusive to English, as Dörr
    to German.

    What is the language of "Martin", "Martino",  of

    Martin: Identical in English, Spanish, French, Dutch, German,
    Norwegian, Danish, Swedish?


If that is what the expert in onomastics thinks, yes. Not an 
ontological issue. We provide the semantic framework, they do the 
researching.


    Martino in Italian, Rumanian?

    From Wikipedia: "Joshua".

    *Josua* or *Jozua* is a male given name and a variation of the
    Hebrew name Yeshua <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>.^[1]
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-1> ^[2]
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-2> Notable people
    with this name include:

      * Josua Bühler
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_B%C3%BChler>
        (1895–1983), Swiss philatelist
      * Josua de Grave <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_de_Grave>
        (1643–1712), Dutch draughtsman and painter
      * Josua Harrsch <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Harrsch>
        (1669–1719), German missionary
      * Josua Hoffalt <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Hoffalt>
        (born 1984), French ballet dancer
      * Josua Järvinen
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_J%C3%A4rvinen>
        (1871–1948), Finnish politician
      * Josua Koroibulu
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Koroibulu> (born 1982),
        Fijian rugby league footballer
      * Josua Heschel Kuttner
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Heschel_Kuttner>
        (c. 1803–1878), Jewish Orthodox scholar and rabbi
      * Josua Lindahl <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Lindahl>
        (1844–1912), Swedish-American geologist and paleontologist
      * Josua Maaler <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Maaler>
        (1529–1599), Swiss pastor and lexicographer
      * Josua Mateinaniu
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mateinaniu> (fl. 1835),
        Fijian missionary
      * Josua Mejías
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mej%C3%ADas> (born
        1997), Venezuelan footballer
      * Johann Josua Mosengel
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Josua_Mosengel>
        (1663–1731), German pipe organ builder
      * Jozua Naudé (disambiguation)
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozua_Naud%C3%A9_(disambiguation)>,
        several people
      * Josua Swanepoel
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Swanepoel> (born 1983),
        South African cricketer
      * Josua Tuisova <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Tuisova>
        (born 1994), Fijian rugby union player
      * Josua Vakurunabili
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vakurunabili> (born
        1992), Fijian rugby union player
      * Josua Vici <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vici> (born
        1994), Fijian rugby union player

    Following scripts, only /יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
    
<https://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe?type=HB&target=Y%3Ahwos%5Eu%5E%22a%5E>/
    would be Hebrew, but Yeshua
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> English?


This is a question for the knowledge base. The English speaker 
writing this article thinks that "Josua" applies to these people. It 
is up to them to instantiate an instance of the class, call it Hebrew 
and then assign it as a name of those individuals. If someone wants 
to dispute this, they can use negative properties. I don't know if 
the above wikipedia article is true or not, but I would like to be 
able to represent that data in the KB so that I could try to find out.

So, not sure why that's a blocker.
Best,

George

_______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list 
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig 


Cheers

Gordon




--
------------------------------------
 Dr. Martin Doerr

              
 Honorary Head of the

 Center for Cultural Informatics

 
 Information Systems Laboratory

 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)

                  
 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,

 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece

 
 Vox:+30(2810)391625
 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr   
 Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig





























					Reply via email to