Perhaps for the first time, I agree with Martin and not George! The PC classes are part of the ontological layer -- we don't say that classes or properties are descendants of E1. Or PC classes are T box (terminology) and not A box (assertions using that terminology). (See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abox)
I can see, however, that it would be useful to be able to refer to assertions in CRMInf and perhaps in Activity templates ... but then those assertions _are_ A box - the are the subject of the discourse, not the language in which the discourse is taking place. We have Attribute Assignment to talk about important activities that assert relationships or properties. And if we don't want to go to that layer of A box layer reification, then we have the partitioning pattern -- to assert a role of a particular individual in an activity, we can identify the part of that activity that the person carried out and assert a role classification on it via P2_has_type. Rob On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 9:44 AM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Dear All, > > I don't think it is correct to make the PC classes entities. Even though > formally an RDF class could be regarded as an entity, ontologically we > distinguish entities and relationships. The E-R paradigm makes this > distinction also formally clear. We model the properties with .1 properties > in FOL as n-ary relationships, and not as individuals. > > Making the PC classes CRM Entities is inconsistent with the FOL > definition, which is the proper formalization. > In other words, we would make a workaround for a missing feature in RDFS > an ontological argument. We are again in the discussion to take RDFS as the > definition of the CRM, and not as an implementation. > > As a first step, we could introduce an "E0 CRM Relation", which would have > as instances all properties and the PC classes. The ontological distinction > between relations and entities is fundamental to the methodology of > ontological analysis. > > As a second step, we can start to investigate to which degree PC classes > qualify as ontological individuals in their own right. If we start > declaring a priori all PC classes as entities, we have later to justify and > remove all those that are relations in the true sense. For instance, I > cannot imagine the "being part of" a Physical Object for some time to > become an entity, because it needs a timespan. > > Best, > > Martin > > On 5/8/2023 12:54 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: > > Hi all, > > I would argue that the safest thing to do is to make the PCs a subclass of > E1 and then see where we go from there. I agree with Martin that it can't > be an information object (because everything would be then) but I imagine > we would have a debate about what each .1 actually ontologically is. What > is certain is that by virtue of the fact of being something said in the > universe of CIDOC CRM it is something sayable / mentionable. This is what > E1 gives us, the most vague point of an object that can be pointed to and > named, possibly classified. The problem is right now that we have something > that is sayable in CIDOC CRM (PCxxx) but it is not referenceable. But this > is a logical contradiction. Everything that can be said can be referenced > and PCxxx can definitely be said. > > For example, if I say that Bob was involved in the Production of Mona Lisa > as Creator then this is something said / stated that is important, that has > a real world referent, which has a definite meaning which is true or false > etc. Ergo, it requires provenance. The basic mechanism for provenance in > CRMbase is E13 and indicates that there was an agency behind something > being asserted of something else. > > Here the thing we want to talk about is the role and the role IS an > instance of PC14. It's already an instance of a class so it should be > referenceable. (Also one might like to put a bibliography for people who > thought that Bob was Creator of Mona Lisa etc.) > > So I would go exactly for Paulos' modelling but with this change: > > :painting_sistine_chapel > crm:P01i_is_domain_of :role_of_michaelangeo_in_sistene_chapel_project > > :role_of_michaelangeo_in_sistene_chapel_project > a crm:PC14_carried_out_by ; > crm:P02_has_range :Michelangelo ; > crm:P14.1_in_the_role_of :master_craftsman . > :attrAssign1 > a crm:E13_Attribute_Assignment ; > crm:P140_assigned_attribute_to > :role_of_michaelangeo_in_sistene_chapel_project > ... ... ... > > > On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:42 AM athinak <athi...@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > >> Dear George, all, >> >> I am not sure that the class PC0_Typed_CRM_Property should be a >> subclass of E1. In my understanding, this class implies a situation >> concluded in an epistemological context. I am also not sure if the >> provenance we are looking for in this set of statements is a kind of >> E13. I am just wondering. >> >> BRs, >> Athina >> >> >> On 2023-03-29 16:36, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: >> > Dear all, >> > >> > When using the PC classes modelling structure we end up with a class >> > node for a property which we can then modify with things like 'kinds' >> > and 'modes' etc. >> > >> > Since such a statement has meaning and comes from somewhere [e.g.: >> > that someone did something in some capacity (PC14 carried out by ... >> > P02 has range E39 + P14.1 in the role of E55)] one sometimes needs to >> > provenance this statement with an E13 attribute assignment. Ie we want >> > to ground who made this claim. >> > >> > In theory this would be done with E13 pointing to the node in the >> > typical fashion (p141, P140). However, the class >> > PC0_Typed_CRM_Property is not declared as a subtype of E1 CRM Entity >> > in the PC extension file. As a result we cannot do this. >> > >> > https://cidoc-crm.org/rdfs/7.1.1/CIDOC_CRM_v7.1.1_PC.rdfs >> > >> > I would argue PC0_Typed_CRM_Property should be declared a subclass of >> > E1_CRM_Entity. Then it would be consistent with the rest of the >> > modelling. >> > >> > Opinions? >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > George >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Crm-sig mailing list >> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > -- Rob Sanderson Senior Director for Digital Cultural Heritage Yale University
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