-Caveat Lector-
Caveat Lector-
Gavin Phillips wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read
the
> hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out
to
> be a statist.
I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous
situation in
Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what
your
Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are.
> The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the
> government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did
> such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC
> bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's
> gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes
> that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones
to
> have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and
> subjugation.
I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously.
Gavin;
When the government tortures, gases, shoots and incinerates some 80 kids,
woman and men for absolutely no reason. Paranoid foolishness?
Law enforcement shoots a 14 year old in the back and his nursing mother in
the face, killing them both. Paranoid foolishess?
FBI instruct their undecover agent, Elam A. Salem in the New York World Trade
Center Bombing, not to switch a harmless powder for the bomb and it blows up.
They then pay him (bribe?) a million dollars for his testimony against the
supposed bombers. Paranoid foolishness?
An ATF agent at the scene in the OKC bombing told Bruce Shaw that there were
no ATF in the building at the time of the explosions, they were paged and
told not to go to work that day. Shaws employer overheard this conversation.
The government is lieing about every aspect of this incident-period. Paranoid
foolishness?
Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above cases,
or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive
government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it.
> But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall
> to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving
> government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely
corrupted
> from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough
> going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be
> trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of
> government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace?
I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by
now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the
Government armed. That's because
you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I,
and apparently
very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How
about that?
Gavin;
I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters. Stop making
assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life.(except an air gun
when I was 12. Really powerful, you could see the pellet coming out of the
barrel). Do us all a favor, and cut down on the purile name calling, it
doesn't strengthen your argument. ("and seemingly nuts to boot")
It seems that you Nurev are starting to become a "true believer" in the
government's/mainstream media's propaganda swill about why Americans should
be disarmed. Nothing, nothing Billl Clinton does or attempts to do is for the
good of Americans. He marches to a different tune, his agenda is given to him
by the people who put him there and who have been covering his backside for
the last 7 years, and some 60 convenient deaths. The string pullers behind
the curtain pulling Clintons and many other politicians strings know they
have to get the guns in order to subjugate us even further. You cannot have a
dictatorship without first getting the guns. If you are naive enough to
believe that the whores in Washington are after the guns for our benefit you
reallly need to hit the books. You really think Clinton, Reno and the many
other politicopaths give a damn about us. As for your statement;
"and apparently very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with
weapons. How about that?" As you know, very many of our fellow citizens
change their opinion more often than their underwear. Their opinion changes
according to the latest manipulated media poll and what ever is politically
correct at the time. If the time ever came when the government passed a law
to ban all weapons and there were hundreds of Wacos going on, you might find
their opinion rapidly changing. Don't count on support from sheep. They go
wherever public opinion and emotion herds them.
>
> You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the
> citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw uprising in
> which a handful of Jews took on and held their own for quite some time
> against the Nazis' s after they had managed to obtain some firearms. Preach
> your statism in Beijing where I'm certain they will also secretly hold you
in
> contempt. Your views on inalienable human rights are particularly revealing;
Yes these things happened. But they are only a POSSIBILITY at this
point in this country. Why should I take your word for it that you can see the
future? What IS A FACT is that there are far too many gun related deaths NOW.
Gavin;
A possibility which is becoming a very realistic reality if you study the
dozens of illegal and pernicious activities of our government/depsots in the
last 20 years in particular. I cannot see the future. But I can see many
hundreds of thousands more gun related deaths if they try to ban guns
completely, and possibly civil war. There are many states which would refuse
to give up guns, with law enforcement lining up alongside the citizens.
Do you really think banning guns in this country would significantly reduce
gun related deaths given the massive black market that would take place of
your local gunsmiths? Criminals will still be able to obtain guns, and
probably easier than before because they always had to get them through the
black market anyway.
> Not at all. Rights are a conceptual legal concept. If everybody
> > > plays along, you have rights. If most, or even many people don't
> > > play along, you have bupkes. There is nothing inalienable about
> > > legalisms in the real world.
> > >
> > > >
> >Jim Norman says;
> > The above is a most revealing statement. It shows that Nurev has the
> > same understanding of rights as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and all the
> > other mass murders of the past (and of the future). They have no concept
> > of the agreement among mature people to recognize the humanity of others
> > and not treat them as resources to be exploited and killed if they get
> > in the way.
>
> Not only Hitler and Mao, Jim. Also George Bush and Bill and Hilary Clinton
> along with many Congressman and Senators. Conceptual only to a wanton
> socialist like yourself, Nurev.
I'm not a Socialist. But, I don't mind them either. I much prefer
socialists
to Libertarians.
Gavin;
I am not a Libertarian, but I much prefer them to Socialists.
> Rights only subscribed by the gun toting ATF
> murderer at your doorstep and fully endorsed by Nurev. How comforting. You
> talk about our basic human rights being a conceptual legal concept, what
> utter nonsense. Trying to make our basic human rights an issue in which we
> need lawyers to decide what we do and do not need. I'm certain most people
> can agree on what our basic rights are without the need for lawyers
ratifying
> it. You not only advocate only a government of armed thugs, you reduce our
> rights to the whim of lawyers decisions.
I never said anything about lawyers. You only have rights as long as
everyone you live with agrees to recognize those rights. There is no such
thing
as natural rights except in your fevered imagination. You are no
different from the the true believers who say that animals have rights.
Neither is
true in the real world.
Don't get me wrong, There is nothing wrong with establishing "
rights." It's just that you like to forget that your rights depend on all of
us.
Things are changing rapidly with relation to guns. I like how they are
changing.
You don't. If you are smart, you will make the best of it.
Joshua2
Gavin;
I do not forget that my rights depend upon others recognizing and wanting the
same rights. You want to give up the right for law abiding citizens to bear
arms because you will feel safer when only criminals and government appointed
agencies have guns. The whores in Washington and mainstream media schills
have done a great job on you.
nessie wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> >>I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I
> don't want to go down with it.
>
> If you think you can avert violence by not being ready to counter it, you
> are a fool. Violence is part of life; it is NOT going away just because
> some people wish it to. Violence has been part of life since the first
> aomeba ate the first protazoa; get used to it.
I may be more used to it than you. I grew up and worked in the
toughest
neighborhoods in NYC. I was on the receiving end of a major war.
> Violence is not evil.
> Violence is not good. Violence just is.
Not at all. Violence is failure. The only justification for violence
iself defense. Real self defense not your paranoid fantasies of a
future that may or may not happen.
Gavin;
That's right. Violene is failure. Unfortunately it will never be erradicated,
especially with the likes of the ATF, FBI and other government gestapo
harrassing and murdering Americans. Real self defence? What is your
definition of real self defence. No knock warrants, government agencies
trashing your house looking for drugs or guns which they cannot find because
they were never there in the first place. Government seizing your house, car,
other belongings because they found some marijuana.
According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban and
the government sending in the military on house to house searches in order to
get them, (because that is the only way they will get them)and the massive
social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far more
peacful then, right Nurev? There will be civil war the likes of which we have
never seen. Far fewer gun related deaths? I don't think so.
> To equate the knee to a rapists
> crotch with the sap in a mugger's hand is an infantile thought process.
> That's kidthink. Grow up. Violence is like weather. Sometimes it's sunny.
> Sometimes it rains. When it rains do we hide in the house? No, we carry an
> umbrella and go on about our life.
This is idiotic. Get yourself together.
>
> >How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel
> ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many?
>
> And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically
> correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that
> matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton
> died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind
> armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then
> waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their
> cowardly pig snouts in the door?
Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant
that the police are useless.
Gavin;
First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the wherewithal
to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have been
for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban? Not
very long. By the way, since when has it become irrelevent that law
enforcement, with all their weaponery and flak jackets, wait outside the
school while the killers reap carnage. Would it still be irrevelent if it was
your kids or friends who were being slaughtered? The police are not useless,
they chose to cowardly cower outside instead of doing their job and trying to
stop the killers and also give first aid to the injured.
>
> 911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready
> is better.
Agreed.
>
> >I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of
> Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the
> concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of
> poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social
> disintegration
> is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution.
>
> "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." --
> Malcolm X
So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are
they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no.
they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians
in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a
Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world.
Gavin;
As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the
gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other. The vast majority of
them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but that
doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban.
>
> >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence.
>
> And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery.
And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves
get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put
your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the
2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body."
Prove Darwin right.
Gavin;
Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a slave.
Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others fought
for it. Nurev, is everybody who owns a gun because they fear a despotic
government, the reason the founding fathers gave us the 2nd Ammendment in the
first place, all "gun nuts." The vast majority of the people in the gun
culture are law abiding citizens who see a depraved leader and an out of
control law enforecment doing what ever they want. You suck up the
government's propaganda so well, I thought you had more sense than that.
Are the ATF and FBI etc. gun nuts too, or are they okay because they work for
the government. The ATF and FBI have toally discraced themselves in the last
few years with there constant lies, witness intimidation, murders, cover-ups
and wholsale cowardice. If you are so proud of them and obviously seem to
think that they do a good job, why not join up, put your money where your
mouth is, get some blood on your hands. But watch your back jack, because
those boys will have you going through the door first every time.
As for Darwin, I wouldn't put much credence in his hypothesis. He was the man
who said he didn't see any problems with a bear turning into a whale, given
enough time.(snicker)I suppose given enough time, hippo's will fly, and then
we'll all be in the shit.
>
> >>I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see
> that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in
> a country with free access to millions of guns.
>
> And any fool SHOULD be able to see what would becoume of us if we lived in
> a country where only the government had guns.
There are many countries where the population doesn't have access to
weapons and they do very nicely. By golly !
Gavin;
Different cultures. America is the worlds superpower and with the most
relaxed gun laws as yet. They have to get our guns, they already have
everybody elses.
>
> But I guess not.
It's coming. Just a few more massacres. Bye bye Smith & Wesson.
Joshua2
Gavin;
Stop drooling over a few more massacres. As long as it's somebody else who
gets murdered you and the worthless scum in Washington can keep on pushing
their new gun laws. As long as it's somebody elses misery. Like I said befoe
Nurev, join up, get your hands bloody, or do you prefer to sit on the
sidelines and let others do the killing, to stop the killing?!
Bye bye Smith and Wesson, hello a very lucrative black market and more
killing as illegal gun dealing takes over from illegal drug dealing as the
best way to make money for criminals. Your simplistic scenario's just do not
hold up when you give the subject a little thought.
Does anyone doubt that they are happy to hear of the killings?
> > Look what Nurev writes later about the increasing number of people who
> > might join his cause: "Oh yeah??? Wanna bet? This country has one, maybe
> > two more massacres left before it becomes a groundswell". Does that not
> > sound like someone who is looking forward to more such murders?
That's a warning of inevitability. Not a desire for carnage. That was a
pathetic attempt. You are so self centered that you ( pl ) think
we are after you. The intent here is to stop the killing and you and
the NRA and some bought politicians are in the way. But every massacre is a
nail in the NRA's coffin. Every shot to death citizen, every accidentally
killed child brings your time to an end. It's called change. It's called
democracy.Live with it. Or not.
Gavin;
He's right on the money. We all see you are eager with anticipation at the
coming war between gun owners and the government. As I have pointed out on
numerous occasions, passing a total gun ban will not stop the killing, it
will exacerbate it a 1000 fold. Whole States will refuse to abide by it. 95%+
politicians in America today are bought. On both sides of this issue. Do you
really believe that all the mass shootings is the product of people
constantly going insane. How convenient for Bill Clinton that these incidents
greatly incites the sheople to support more and more gun laws. What a
coincidence. Unfortunately I don't believe in recurring "coincidences" which
keep benefiting Bill's agenda.
Live with it or die, right? Sounds like your philosophy of less killing is
clashing with your instinct to see the gun owners executed. Tut tut.
> >
> > On several occasions Nurev has threatened his critics with a future
> > revolution of the people. He seems to enjoy fantasizing about a future
> > revolution against the "capitalists" who he seems to fear will take over
> > the government.
I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome
of Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the
concen-tration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of
poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social disintegration
is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution.
I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see
that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in a
country with free access to millions of guns.
(They haven't already?) Yet here he wants to take away
> > their guns. What kind of sense does that make?
Right! Like you gun loonies are really going to stop tanks with your
9mms and your shotguns. Who the hell do you think you are impressing? No
one takes you clowns seriously except your own delusional selves. Waco was
very well armed remember? The only thing that could have saved them was an
outcry from all of us. Do you guys think there will be an outcry from the
rest of your fellow citizens when we all decide through the political process
that we no longer want guns in the general population AND YOU WON'T COMPLY?
Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns.
Period.
Gavin;
Millions of armed citizens is a very large obstacle to overcome. Do you
really see the ATF and FBI putting their heads in the crosshairs when the
gloves come off and it's open season on government agencies? The military
would have to be called in. But the situation would be far more complex than
the simple scenario you seem to see Nurev. It is a totally different
situation asking American soldiers to kill Americans for defending their 2nd
Ammendment rights, even if the politicians have managed to manufacture enough
"mass shootings" in order to ban all guns. Many of our military personnel
despise Bill Clinton and see him as a totally self serving and worthless sack
of shit that he is. Many would help people standing against his gun ban,
either join them or supply them with more sophisticated weaponry. Many would
ask why? Why does Bill Clinton, who has displayed a total disregard for the
rights of Americans and lacks any credibility whatsoever, want to ban guns?
Bill Clinton, who has repeatedly refused to aknowledge the terrible suffering
by tens of thousands of Gulf War Vets afflicted with Chemical and biological
poisoning, or to do something useful about it. When they start asking these
and other questions your simplistic version becomes nonsense. It would be
wholesale slaughter, either way you look at it. It would not be a simple case
of the military running around and collecting the guns.
The Branch Davidians could have opened fire any time they wanted on the ATF
who pulled up in noisy cattle trucks in a virtually treeless terrain. They
didn't because they were not looking for trouble. The ATF and other
government scum were. They were looking to make a big splash in the papers
just in time for the upcoming appropriations meeting who decide how much
money to allocate the ATF. Time for a dog and pony show. There could well
have been other nefarious agendas at work also.
How long do you think the many millions of Americans who get their
"news-bytes" from Channel 5 and 7 etc. are going to start changing their
opinions the instant thousands of Americans start killing each other. Watch
all that supposed support you keep talking about wither away. Not to mention
the massive rift that there would be throughout America after such a
catastrophic upheaval.
What political process? A process that has become so bastardised and
corrupted it bears little if any resemblance to America 100 years ago.
A largely dumbed down and disenfranchised society purposely made that way by
the string pullers. Keep em ignorant and pre-occupied with the idiot box.
Many are waking up. Allowing them to take the guns is not going to make it
any better.
However, as I am sure you realize, a well armed citizenry would be
> impossible to stop even if the opposition had help from outside forces
> (as they probably would).
This is wishful thinking. It bears no resemblance to reality. The US
Government is the most powerful entity in all of history.
Gavin;
Run by Americans, for Americans. Not for the oligarchy who want to enslave
us. I think enough of them will realize the ruse and the attempted gun
confiscation will backfire badly.
If this is
> to lead to a revolution, as you seem to believe, why do you want the
> people to be disarmed while the government (which you know is under the
> control of the elite you seem to deplore) is so well armed?
It's a question of priority. Revolution is theoretical. Gun violence is
immediate.
Gavin;
As I said before. Gun violence will continue especially with the flourishing
black market gun trade which will fill the vacuum.
>
> > Who the hell do you think you are impressing? No
> > one
> > takes you clowns seriously except your own delusional selves.
>
> So I am a clown and delusional? Please try to control yourself when
> addressing me.
I apologize. I am speaking to you as representative rather than you
as Howard the individual. You ( all ) are not taken seriously by anyone
but each other and the politicians who represent some of you. I say this
not as much to put you down, as to make you understand that you don't
have John Q. Citizen on you side and you are loosing more fence sitters
every day.
Today, that awful establishment twat Elizabeth Dole came out
for restrictions on guns. She didn't do this for the hell of it. Her
pollsters see enough people on the right changing their attitudes about
the availability of guns. She is also setting a line of demarcation between
her and Baby Bush. This will be the " hot button issue " to turn out the
Republican vote. I hope she looses because I just can't stand her accent.
But the point really is the direction of the gun issue in politics.
The NRA
line of no give has brought you gun nuts to this. The NRA doesn't care
about you or rights. They are the political action arm of the US gun
manufacturers and they use the Second Amendment and suckers like you to
keep pushing their over saturation of their domestic market. You want to
get yourself killed for the gun manufacturers? If so, your are a fine
example of evolution in action.
Gavin;
That is right, of course the NRA have an agenda to perpetuate arms
manufacture. Of course there are prostituted politicians on both sides of the
issue. What's new? Do you want to be enslaved by a meglomaniacal rapist
sociopath such as Bill Clinton or his replacement? I would only get myself
killed defending myself or someone else form being killed or fighting for
liberty. There you go again with your specious evolution analogy's.
>
> > Waco was
> > very
> > well armed remember?
>
> No, they were not. There is evidence that many of the guns were placed
> in the building after the fire. And, even if they did have many guns,
> half of the people there were women and children (and, of course, they
> were in a flimsy easily torched wooden building).
And where will your women and children be? Fort Knox?
Gavin;
What's your point? ATF/FBI burnt and shot those people to death.
>
> > The only thing that could have saved them was an
> > outcry
> > from all of us. Do you guys think there will be an outcry from the
> > rest of
> > your fellow citizens when we all decide through the political process
> > that
> > we no longer want guns in the general population AND YOU WON'T COMPLY?
> >
> > Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns.
> > Period.
>
> If this society is too sick to have easy access to guns then one must
> ask the question: Why is it too sick now when 200 years ago the leaders
> of our country thought the opposite?
POPULATION!!!!!!
Gavin;
Population is the smallest part of the problem. An "education" system which
is systematically producing worker drones who don''t have an original
thought. A system which promotes the group above the individual. You must go
along to get along. Conforming is the name of the game.
The massive rise in the cost of living in the last 20 years especially. Most
family's today both parents work and still live from paycheque to paycheque.
Many families one or more parents is working two jobs and or going back to
school. School loans, credit card debt, work work work to try and keep ahead
of the massive inflation created by the oligarchy who run the Fedeal Reserve,
the most powerful private organization in America. These are some of the
reasons.
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