Re: [Declude.JunkMail] AOL and Reverse DNS

[Hosting Support]

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Hi Pete,   I do agree with you on all of the problems you present in regards to a governing body that can enforce it's will.  However, I think we're already there to some degree with the fact that companies like AOL can enforce policies locally that impact others and force them to adapt to their wishes....except that it's N companies instead of a single standards board  This is not a much different from the "be careful what you wish for" scenario you mentioned, just more chaotic.   You're certainly right on target on the "If everyone would just do it like I do it" point.  However, I think we all realize compromises will be necessary when working together, and I strongly believe that these problems will not be solved without cooperation.   I think my main point is still key: I'd much rather be forced into compliance by a standards body that has agreed on a course of action and notifies me of necessary changes ahead of time than by N companies that all make changes without notifying me, forcing me to scramble to address the howling concerns of my customers.  Yes, it is possible that the standards might be expensive enough to implement to drive some small companies out of business, but that's not much different from the attrition we can see from customers moving to large companies in order to ensure their email gets delivered to other customers of said company.   So, yes, you're right.  There will be problems, and it's not a perfect solution, but I think if the IETF or some other body can gain enough power to enforce standards that are the consensus of the majority (probably best based on customer base) it's the best chance we have. Darin.     ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete McNeil To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] AOL and Reverse DNS This is a common perception... and one that I share to some extent. None the less, it's not an easy problem. The network runs on consensus - and that is nearly impossible to build and enforce. Ultimately, we hope, what works will win out and become recognized as a standard. That is more likely than any body creating a "standard" and then "enforcing" it into place.   Some, with the power and money to do so, are capable of pushing their "standards" onto the 'net... and that is both good and bad.   I guess my point is this: Picking somebody other than IETF to do this would most likely change the name but produce the same result. Giving any strong enforcement power to any such body would be disastrous because that power would quickly be abused either directly or through compromise. Imagine, for example, if VeriSign were in charge (chaching!) of how everything worked on the Internet! (I know from personal experience that they would love that... they may even feel entitled to it from some of the conversations I've overheard.)   It's not an easy problem.   The answer resides in real solutions - not in enforcement. You can't pry a good working solution from the cold dead hands of a good systems admin - or even most mediocre ones, but you can be pretty sure that almost every systems admin (good, bad, and ugly) will avoid using a bad solution no matter what enforcement might be at work - if they have any alternative at all.   The Internet is an interesting training ground for real life problems we've yet to deal with on this planet. It only works when it really works... network effects create tremendous leverage... but opportunities to compromise the system for local motives will be exploited if they can be - even if that means killing off the whole thing. (sad but we treat each other this way too more often than not...) Broader vision and altruism are often missing from the decision making process - so any single point of authority with significant power finds itself corrupted and manipulated - if not from the inside then from the outside.   Often we forget that we're all connected. Often when folks say that the solution is in some strong central authority that can enforce a proper standard, they are really saying "everything would be fine if everyone would just do what I say." These folks fail to consider what it would be like if they got their wish, but the "authority" decided to do things that they couldn't live with. Be careful what you wish for - you might get it.   The Internet is a great model for this kind of problem - a problem that we face every day without recognizing it. Humans have not yet discovered how to work and solve these problems (at least not en-mass) - but perhaps they will now that we can face them from a different perspective. It's easy to forget we all breath the same air, but not so easy to forget when your email isn't working ;-)   The IETF, like any body attempting to do that job, is mostly stuck battling a never ending storm of conflicting self interest on the part of the participants. When we (all) figure out how to solve those problems more efficiently then good standards will emerge and consensus will be easier to develop.   In the mean time, it's a race to develop good working solutions and hope they catch on before too much damage is done - for all I know this method might even be the model solution in the end... It seems to work in nature - competing diversity, with successful paradigms sweeping away the old... broad communication and collaboration offering advantage to those who participate... it makes me think...   Sorry for all the philosophy...   _M   PS: A Beautiful Mind was a great movie (IMO). There was a great moment where some complex realities of economics were crystallized and made transparent - I love when that happens. Let's not all "go for the blonde". -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hosting Support Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] AOL and Reverse DNS Probably, but if so, they're not doing their job.  We need an organization that is less ivory tower and more proactive in enforcing standards and best practices. Darin.     ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete McNeil To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 10:38 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] AOL and Reverse DNS Isn't the IETF supposed to be this body? _M At 09:14 PM 12/16/2003, you wrote: I would agree with this type of governing body.  One that sets standards like RDNS entries and what they mean.    < pessimistic rant> But it is still up to each mail admin(s) to implement an anti-spam policy.  And the history of governing bodies is such that only the biggest players have a voice.  This would probably mean that AOL, Earthlink, RR, Hotmail, etc would be on the governing council�and it would be interpreted to their greatest competitive advantage�and nothing would have changed! </pessimistic rant> Todd Holt Xidix Technologies, Inc Las Vegas, NV  USA www.xidix.com 702.319.4349   -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Hosting Support Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 4:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] AOL and Reverse DNS   This is exactly why I think we should have a some sort of global internet council for setting standards, rather than all of us little guys having to react, after the fact, whenever a large player makes a change.  The global council could maintain a distribution list to help mail admins to keep up with proposed changes and implementation schedules.  This is very similar to any other industry that must keep up with compliance standards.   In some ways this also seems like an unfair competition tactic as it makes the little guys look bad when our customers can't send mail to AOL...it encourages customers to move to the large players to avoid not having mail delivered to their users. Darin.     ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Holt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 7:32 PM Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] AOL and Reverse DNS   I know this will stir a few people the wrong way, but�   If so many people are upset that MS is being monopolistic by using their EULA to prevent software from operating, then why don�t those same people get upset at AOL for the internet-nazi-police tactics used to prevent mail from being delivered?   MS just says that you can�t use certain apps on their OS.  AOL says that you can�t deliver mail through mail servers (that control more email than any other on the planet) because they deemed it �bad� through inaccurate, generalized and dare I say �monopolistic� policies.   The lack of complaints about AOL just shows that the MS bashers are not upset about the MS policies (or monopoly), they just want to complain about the big company on the block.  I think if the majority owner of AOL was the richest person on the planet, they would bash AOL.  How short sided!!!   Further, all of the justice dept. proceedings are based on complaints by the competition, not the users.  On the other hand, AOL has thousands of consumer complaints, but very few (if any) complaints by competitors.  It�s obvious that the justice dept. just wants to appease whiny losers like Jim Barksdale and Scott McNealy.  And the MS bashers just fall in line.  Lemmings. Todd Holt Xidix Technologies, Inc Las Vegas, NV  USA www.xidix.com 702.319.4349   -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Andy Schmidt Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 3:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] AOL and Reverse DNS   Hi,   I just noticed that AOL has stepped up their policies another notch.   They used to say that "AOL  **MAY**" not accept email from servers without Reverse DNS. In the last two weeks, that changed: http://postmaster.aol.com/guidelines/standards.html   AOL's servers will not accept connections from unsecured systems. These include open relays, open proxies, open routers, or any other system that has been determined to be available for unauthorized use. AOL's mail servers will not accept connections from systems that use dynamically assigned or residential IP addresses. AOL will not deliver e-mail that contains a hex-encoded Universal Resource Locator (URL). (Ex: http://%6d%6e%3f/) AOL's mail servers will reject connections from any IP address that does not have reverse DNS (a PTR record).     Best Regards Andy Schmidt H&M Systems Software, Inc. 600 East Crescent Avenue, Suite 203 Upper Saddle River, NJ 07458-1846 Phone:  +1 201 934-3414 x20 (Business) Fax:    +1 201 934-9206 http://www.HM-Software.com/