Hi Laurent, [ top posting by design ] And then what is the piece you bring to the impress mode toolbar analysis? Kind regards Sophie Le 22 janv. 2016 20:00, "Laurent Lyaudet" <[email protected]> a écrit :
> Hi, > > I don't buy the argument "Go to the design hangouts if you have something > to say or else shut up". > This sounds like TyrannyOffice more than LibreOffice. > No schedule for a world project can make it possible that all the people > that want to participate can effectively participate in the design hangouts. > Design mailing list is Libre, the design hangouts give all the powers to a > smaller set of persons. > It doesn't matter that they are benevolent and have a lot of good will. > They must accept feedback from the mailing list and from users. > > I agree that complaints from users should be polite but we must accept the > verdict when we fail to do something good. > Nobody is perfect. > I also know that feedback is unfair since people are much more motivated > to give their feedback when they are unhappy. > That's how the world works most of the time. > Detaching yourself of the imperfections of the world is part of becoming > adult > (maybe "detaching yourself" is too strong, I tried to translate "prendre > du recul". > It applies both to the people that gives the feedback and the people that > recieves the feedback). > > Best regards, > Laurent > > > Le 22/01/2016 15:38, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit : > >> I recall seeing those discussions in the design Hangouts minutes. I >> haven't >> participated in them. >> >> <<Another example, I just read in the last design minute [1] that a >> discussion was started about migrating search&replace in sidebar, and more >> important, thinking about modifying the behavior of sidebar ! >> >> AFAIK, there was no announcement, we have no idea of any schedule (time to >> discuss, time to make proposals, time to evaluate them, expected time of >> coding...) >> How can people participate without a minimum of schedule ?>> >> >> Ok, I'll let in on a little known thing: the *Hangouts have a defined >> schedule*!!!! >> And actually here's the thing: >> >> 1. people make proposals in the Hangout meetings, >> 2. people discuss proposals in the Hangout meetings >> 3. They evaluate proposals in the Hangout meetings!!!. >> >> It's not like people are meeting in a dark basement plotting on ways to do >> UI work without informing the users.* If you want to make proposals, >> discuss proposal, evaluate them and participate in the development then >> SHOW UP IN THE DESIGN HANGOUTS MEETINGS!!!* I accompany this mailing list >> for years and since UI development picked up pace in the last year and a >> half the devs were tireless in trying to atract new people. >> >> As for that Sidebar proposal they started discussing that in that Hangout >> meeting and it will evolve along time. The discussion about what to do >> with >> the Sidebar has been ongoing since it was introduced in LO. If you don't >> know that what the hell do you want? >> To fill the design process with so much red tape and impediments that the >> UI is basically frozen for all eternity just because you didn't like one >> change that was done? >> About a feature that is going to be re-evaluated because some lazy people >> decided to shout loud about it after the code freeze instead of providing >> feedback early enough in the multitude of opportunities they had??? >> >> As for the rudeness of the feedback of real world users. If they passed >> that feedback to you like why didn't you or Italo *simply filtered and >> presented that feedback in a polite manner*? >> Do you also feel the need to be rude to people that are working their >> asses >> off just because someone vented their frustration to you in a non-polite >> manner? >> >> If you dislike the work done in they UI then show up in the design >> Hangouts >> and start proposing differnt things, collaborate with who does the work, >> try to influence their views positively and maybe submit your code or >> alternatives. Shouting at them for doing their work is not the way. >> >> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Michel RENON <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >>> >>> Le 15/01/2016 19:28, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit : >>> >>> Michel, you can't complain that people are using links not posted in a >>>> tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback in a blog of >>>> someone else. Why didn't that person provide feedback to the design >>>> mailing list for example? >>>> >>>> It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for LibreOffice to >>>> dig through the Internet looking for feedback in obscure blogs. >>>> >>>> But that's currently the state of design documents : they are all stored >>> in personal gdocs, gdrive, blogs... >>> >>> That's why I asked to upload all design documents in the official tdf >>> wiki >>> : it's the central and official place to find anything related to >>> LibreOffice. And it oblige the uploader to choose a license. >>> >>> It brings 2 other questions about surveys and gdocs : >>> >>> - Where are stored the surveys datas ? Who own those datas ? >>> >>> >>> >>> - What are the license of those datas ? of those documents ? >>> >>> As it is related to a FOSS project, it is very important to be clear >>> about >>> license and ownership of everything used to create LibreOffice. >>> Developers are very precise about anything related to license, and I >>> don't >>> understand why developers working in/with the design team don't ask that >>> essential question. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As for >>> >>>> the tools that they prefer to use, I don't see why they should be forced >>>> to eat their own dogfood. >>>> Should they try to incorporate LO as much as possible in their workflow? >>>> Obviously! But if it's detrimental to their productivity then it's >>>> better not to untill it suits them (they then can file bugs and offer >>>> feedback on waht needs to be changed). >>>> No company in the world does that if there's better alternatives out >>>> there. >>>> Heck, do you think development of software in Google is done in ChromeOS >>>> or Android? Or that they don't use Windows/MacOS/Linux distros? >>>> >>>> >>>> Please, don't suppose I'm so dumb... >>> I write software for 25 years >>> >>> >>> "eat their own dogfood" has 3 points : >>> >>> - marketing : enhance confidence in the product >>> tell people outside the FOSS circle that LibreOffice is really usable and >>> versatile >>> >>> - ethical : TDF fights for open formats, open source software, it is >>> logical to use tools that respect those values >>> >>> - technical : if we are our first users, we'll be the first to ask for >>> corrections/enhancements. The more we are uncompromising, the better >>> LibreOffice will be. >>> >>> >>> People in charge of the UI/UX take into account as much feedback as they >>> >>>> can and that is quite transparent. Just go check the Hangouts minutes. >>>> If lately the UI/UX hasn't been stable maybe it's because it had been >>>> "stable" (more like fossilized) for far too long. There were even loads >>>> of features that weren't exposed in the UI! I think it's more than >>>> certain that as the UI/UX becomes updated that it will be more stated. >>>> But in a piece of software with scheduled releases instead of a "launch >>>> when it's ready" model people will inevitably see changes across the >>>> different releases. As they do for the features that are introduced in >>>> each version. >>>> >>>> As for Italo complaints, I find them very unfair since he was really >>>> aggressive and even issued threats when he just complained in a really >>>> late stage of the development process for 5.1. >>>> >>>> Yes it was a bit aggressive, but that's the feedback of real users in >>> real-world usage... >>> >>> >>> >>> Where was his feedback >>> >>>> when this was discussed? Why didn't he provide his feedback earlier? >>>> >>>> very good question ! >>> >>> Can you send links of design minutes where that subject was announced and >>> discussed ? >>> I searched in my thunderbird and found nothing >>> (it may be a search error in my thunderbird) >>> >>> >>> Another example, I just read in the last design minute [1] that a >>> discussion was started about migrating search&replace in sidebar, and >>> more >>> important, thinking about modifying the behavior of sidebar ! >>> >>> AFAIK, there was no announcement, we have no idea of any schedule (time >>> to >>> discuss, time to make proposals, time to evaluate them, expected time of >>> coding...) >>> How can people participate without a minimum of schedule ? >>> >>> >>> If >>> >>>> he wants to have a bigger participation in the development then maybe he >>>> should participate in the process earlier and not start shouting when >>>> there's already a hard freeze when he could've said something before. >>>> >>>> I think there's an issue of people not knowing how to properly leave >>>> their feedback. >>>> >>>> >>> yes, the most important way to give feedback is to participate in >>> hangouts. >>> >>> As most of us are volunteers, it's not easy to be available at the exact >>> time and day of the corresponding subject. >>> >>> If design team wants to have more people sending feedback, then it should >>> announce earlier what it's working on, and then send some kind of RFC >>> (request for comment) on different mailing lists (why not social networks >>> to have a broader audience ?) >>> >>> >>> And as I've already said, design process should be done *very early*, and >>> it should be completed *before* coding starts ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> [1] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07585.html >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] >>> Problems? >>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ >>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >>> deleted >>> >>> >>> > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
