Chuck,
My main beef with AWT/Swing is one of API design first, bugs second, and
performance last.
I think there is a real opportunity here but it is a difficult one to
solve in an open-source context. I think open-source communities are
great for fixing bugs and implementing features but they are not great
for API design. I wish we had someone like Joshua Bloch in charge of
designing a new API that would sit on top of AWT/Swing, provide
equivalent functionality as the original, but with a clean API. I also
believe that it is vital to gradually break backwards compatiblity over
time (as Google Guava does) in order to end up with a better API long-term.
My goal is to make UI development as easy under Java as it is for the
web. For the vast majority of use-cases, technical performance is not
the bottleneck. Developer productivity is. I want an API that faciliates
building Filthy Rich Clients, similar to Android/iOS applications we're
all familiar with that ooze UI goodness.
Gili
On 2018-03-14 10:53 PM, Chuck Davis wrote:
Gili:
So now that they are no longer in charge (it's open source now) let's fix
AWT/Swing/FX and start marketing. We're in charge now. Or did I take a
nap and miss something? Ultimately, perhaps not in the short term, you
get market share by providing a demonstrably better alternative.
We agree on one thing and that is how horrible are browsers for getting
real work done and the level of coding skills -- anybody can make a web
site these days -- and they look like it. It's like VBA making everybody
who writes a macro in excel think they are a programmer. I've heard that
in offices: "I'm programming an excel sheet."
The only reason I've heard for using HTML is it looks better. Well, if you
don't like the looks of Swing change the L&F! If there's no L&F you like,
create one. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water as they say.
Maybe NB needs to start a L&F contest?
One of the problems with this whole discussion is that there is such a wide
variety of interests. I happen to be from a business background and
specifically financial interests. I got into programming because the
software I had to use (MOST accounting software) was so poor. I learned
what I needed to get the job done (I wasn't being paid to be a programmer)
and, unfortunately, because of that I never got the academic background the
smart people here have about render pipelines, etc. But I know VERY well
what business users need; browsers can't cut it but Swing provides
everything the financial side of businesses need and want.
Now if your use case is disseminating information to either internal or
external users and providing file downloads there is no better tool than a
browser. For doing company handbooks, training films, etc. NOBODY wants to
use Swing in that case. Things that move and bob are not welcome in a
business use case but they're all the rage (and appropriate) for
information dissemination. For business use cases "pretty" and "cute" are
unwelcome -- we want functionality. For a browser "pretty" and "cute" are
what it's all about -- HTML is the right tool.
The corollary to that is the audience. There is a vast difference between
250 people placing an order at a web site in a day (a browser is quite
appropriate here) and the AP clerk who has to record 250 AP invoices every
day (or even one day!). With a heads down, efficient data entry Swing
dialog that clerk can process 250 invoices in a relatively short time (and
time IS money). Giving that poor clerk a browser interface to struggle
with is a mean thing to do to an employee. Swing provides a great focus
traversal policy -- FX is even easier and better.
Use the right tool for the use case.
I do desktop apps -- give me Swing/FX. Christian does web apps -- give him
a browser. NB can handle them both and handle them nicely....er, well, at
least as nicely as HTML/browsers can be made to work.
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:58 PM, cowwoc <[email protected]> wrote:
Chuck, I appreciate free software as much as the next guy. But I still
blame Sun and Oracle for killing AWT/Swing.
If they wanted more community contributions they could have opened up the
bug reporting system, faciliated pull requests, and shown that they are
acting in good faith. They chose to pursue a one-way conversation and it
cost them the market.
So yes, I appreciate what we got but ultimately Oracle bares the
responsibility for AWT/Swing/JavaFX dying. Oracle is not a B2C company and
these technologies requires a company that excels at marketing to end-users.
Gili
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