Hi all, Hmmm, it seems that not many here are involved in this issue so the earlier question how many clients use the old template system should be nearly answered. The real question behind this is a) how long is the lifetime of a software in general and b) how long should it be supported?
But first... @Andreas: We've decided to keep on using the old templates after we checked the compatibility of old templates with the OXID 4 Shop. It took me some hours to figure out that the old templates need to be refactored in some points - they never were 100 percent compatible. Our advantage was that the other subshop templates were the same, so migrating all old template sets took about two days - building new ones would have definitely took longer. I'm a little confused about our statement, I remember that we talked about the effort of fixing the old templates and you told me that you've done this in some hours...maybe I've misunderstood you at that time :-0 @Erik: To argue, that other clients will suffer that they will get less features because you have to support old software editions may be right from your point of view, but it's your homework to support both things, not ours as an implementation partner nor the clients ones. I think a software company is responsible for supporting their old software, the only question here is, as you already asked, how long the support should be given? This is the general question and I think this is the point to be discussed here. I personally think that in case of fast moving ecommerce segment this period must not be as long as e.g. in a ERP system like SAP or an OS like Windows, so I would say one year after announcing that support will be suspended should be enough. Maybe there are more opinions from the readers of the mailing list? A new thread about discussing the lifetime of software and the support of it should be openend for this... Additionally I would like to place Andreas' interesting question here again: - Can OXID provide a list of functions and files were the old template support codes resides in? Best Regards, Sven BTW: I talked to my client about migrating the old templates, we will do so in the upcoming year, so the situation relaxed :-) And hey, they procedure to discuss this openly here in mailing list before deciding it on your own is highly appreciated! Go on with this transparency... -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von anzido GmbH Gesendet: Montag, 25. Januar 2010 09:31 An: [email protected] Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Feedbackwanted:Keep supportforoldertemplating system? [T-0E90ZOGEP6-43] Hi all, as I said: I'd like to have that stuff removed soon. In many places it's eating up performance unnecessarily. And a 15 months period of having those deprecated values is enough. (They had been marked as "deprecated" from the very beginning ...) @Sven: Did you really check the amount of time you would need to update those old templates? Actually I cannot really understand why you took this way .. - cause in the very beginning of OXID 4 we tried to take the old templates twice ... - seeing that it did not work to just adopt the old ones but much work had to be done to make for example the order process work. So we decided never to take the old tmeplates cause the effort to switch to the new style was not much bigger as to fix the old templates. The idea to prepare some modules for keeping the old stuff is a good one, I think. @Erik: As you want to remove the old stuff you should know what exactly would have to be removed. So could you perhaps give us a list of files and functions which would be changed due to that? This would make it possible to a. check if all that stuff could be managed by some modules b. devide the task between some more developers and perhaps everybody of this list could contribute ONE module - and we would be done very quickly. :-) Regards! Andreas -----Original data----- Date: 24.01.2010 23:21:56 From: Erik Kort <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Feedbackwanted:Keep supportforoldertemplating system? Task: T-0E90ZOGEP6-43 > Hi Sven, > > It's exactly why we asked this in this mailing list. We want feedback. We > want the dialog. This is not an decision to be taken lightly. > > Yes, OXID wants to get rid of this support as its time consuming in > maintaining. Maybe we should view this in context of years. The 4.0 was > released in October 2008. It's now 2010. We are not talking about removing it > next week :) How long do you think is an appropriate time for support? 2011 ? > And when will it be acceptable for the client that it's no longer supported ? > Did you investigated how much work it is to convert these templates into the > new standard? I guess it's costing OXID way more effort in keeping this > feature than for this customer in porting the templates. To be honest, I > don't think it's fair either to expect indefinite support so that I as > customer never need to change anything, waiting until there is a business > need like a need the look & feel of the shop. The question is: what's a > reasonable timeframe for supporting it, reasonable for the whole community. > Remember that every time spend in supporting old stuff, is reducing the time > to make new cool features. What do you rather have ? I agree, you can't leave > clients out in the rain. But if most are already ported, how long do we keep > supporting this? indirectly on costs of other clients ... They get a tiny bit > of less features .. What is the good timing for stopping support for an old > feature? Not an easy answer... > > BTW Your example scenario EE vs CE is skewed. You still need to update every > CE for bugfixes / security fixes reasons. And if that newer version doesn't > support the old templates you have the same problem again. So what's the > point in this scenario? It doesn't solve your problem. Or do you want to say > that this customer is willing to forgo on bug / security fixes just to save > template issues ? Now that's a scary thought. Maybe he does have a budget for > that ? > > The idea of an old templating system as a module is very interesting. > If we make one, are you willing to maintain it ? This is actually an > serious question ;) > > If anymore of you out there are using old templates. Pls tell us about it > here. We want to know.. > > Regards Erik > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von > Kliebenstein Sven > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. Januar 2010 13:16 > An: [email protected] > Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Feedback wanted:Keep > supportforoldertemplating system? > > Hi all, > > It seems we're the only ones using old templates in OXID 4 - at least inside > this mailing list... > > Some facts: One of our customers runs an OXID EE 4.2.0 Shop with five > subshops in it, the shop was migrated from earlier version 2.7.0.3 to > generation 4 of the shop. The templates for two shops, which are the main > shops in mall, where completely refactored and updated to new template set. > So there are three shops in mall that use the old template sets. The problem > is, that these shops are smaller shops making only little conversion, so > there's no budget for migrating the templates. > > Conclusion: > If we keep the old templates, this would mean that if the support for old > templates is removed, we cannot update the software anymore. So the two > primary shops cannot take advantage of new features or even bugfixes / > security fixes. Therefore for me it seem's to be better for our customers to > install multiple OXID CE's than one big OXID EE! The licence savings could > then be easily invested in implementation partner, hardware, infrastructure, > and so on... In all marketing slides it says "The OXID Enterprise Edition is > the software which fits all your needs and will always support the growth of > your business" - in our case it should say "By using the OXID Enterprise > Edition you agree to adjust your business to the needs of OXID, meaning you > have to reinvest to change the software everytime OXID makes changes in eShop > - and best of all, by changing the development process to extreme programming > OXID is able to release patches every month and updates every quarter..." > > Please don't missunderstand this, but I'm just looking through the glasses of > our customers... > > Ok, let's switch to a bit more constructive thoughts: > How about releasing an "Backward Compatibility Support for old Templates" - > Module where the code is not part of the main shop distribution but available > as a Module, maybe only available for Enterprise customers? > > > Just my two euros ;-) > > Regards, > Sven > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von Ralf > Trapp > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. Januar 2010 09:24 > An: [email protected] > Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Feedback wanted: Keep > supportforoldertemplating system? > > Ahoi! > > >> does this mean it will be removed from v4.4 ? > > Sure. Vote is clear and I see no reason anymore to wait much longer. I cannot > yet promise that we remove it already for 4.4 as we've already many wishes > for that release. As our goal is to have an update each quarter (see also > http://www.oxidforge.org/wiki/Development_Process) it might happen that we > remove it only in 4.5. > > But definitely not later :) > > Regards, > > Ralf > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von Erik > Kort > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Januar 2010 17:06 > An: [email protected] > Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Feedback wanted: Keep > supportforoldertemplating system? > > Hi Ralf, > > Answer of mailing list is clear remove it .. Also when was pretty clear no > later than v4.4. > > does this mean it will be removed from v4.4 ? > > Yes, I know I could ask you tomorrow in office .. I think this is the > kind of discussions/info/decision making which may be good to hold > here .. In front of everybody .. [Mark: OXID Dev-General Mailing List > History Making Moment #1] :-D > > Regards, > > Erik > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von Ralf > Trapp > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Januar 2010 11:39 > An: [email protected] > Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Feedback wanted: Keep support > foroldertemplating system? > > Hi all, > > thanks for your clear feedback! :) > > Ralf > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von > Mathias Fiedler > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Januar 2010 08:21 > An: [email protected] > Betreff: Re: [oxid-dev-general] Feedback wanted: Keep support for > oldertemplating system? > > Get Rid of it! > > Version 4.4. seems to be a good time :) > > Regards > > Mathias > > Am 19.01.2010 um 18:45 schrieb Erik Kort: > > > Hi All, > > > > we currently still have support in the v4.x shops for templates from > > older shop systems (EE2.7 & PE 3.0). Keeping this causes use extra > > maintenance effort. We have code in shop solely to provide this > > support. Personally I would like to get rid of them. It will make > > the code leaner and cleaner. I don't have any reliable information > > about how often this is still used out there. > > > > So I want YOUR feedback! :-) > > > > Do you know of any 4.x shops still running old templates ? .. > > Especially up-to-date shops ( v4.2) > > > > What do you think? Can we remove it ? or do we need to keep this > > support in here longer? > > > > From which 4.x version on should they be removed ? 4.3 ? 4.4. ? 4.5 > > 5.0 ? > > > > As you see many questions. So do give us feedback (here) !! > > > > Regards, > > > > Erik > > > > -- > > > > Erik Kort > > Chief Software Architect > > > > [email protected] > > Fon +49 761 36889-197 > > Fax +49 761 36889-28 > > www.oxid-esales.com > > > > OXID eSales AG > > Bertoldstraße 48 > > 79098 Freiburg > > Deutschland > > > > USt-IdNr.: DE231450866 > > Vorstand: Roland Fesenmayr (Vorsitzender), Eric Jankowfsky, Andrea > > Seeger Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Harald Fuchs > > Sitz: Freiburg > > Amtsgericht Freiburg i. 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