To make things clear -- I don't have strong opinion that slack is better. I just like to address initial thoughts of newcomer-developer. Since the dev world communication is currently very slack-oriented, I use it as a main reference. I see the point that dev list is probably better and mostly agree. But currently it is too hard to understand it. I think it is important to change current state, that sounds like "love it or leave it" unless you have spent enough time to understand why it is not. Since this is Apache-way we can probably take some best practices from other projects, or invent ours and spread it to the Apache community. Anton
On 2020/01/11 22:28:31, Kaxil Naik <kaxiln...@gmail.com> wrote: > To answer your questions Anton, > > Slack is good for quick communication and for user-queries but not great > for Dev communication. > > One of the very recent examples was of recent AIP discussions about > Reschedule Operators (or Async Operators). I missed the "group creation" on > Slack for that SIG (Special Interest Group) as Slack already has 100s if > not more messages daily and hence also missed the informal meeting which I > (and other users like me) would have loved to be a part of. > > It is not easy to keep up with the messages over on Slack. We currently > have more than ~4600 users on Slack and it is mostly used as a > faster-alternative of StackOverflow. > As the original creator of our Slack Workspace with Sid, the original idea > was to use it as a medium for users to gets their doubts cleared from > committers and other fellow users. > We also have a "how-to-pr" and "development" channels for users who need > some assistance or sometimes what the PR tests to be restarted. > > But it is definitely not a drop-in replacement for the dev-list where there > are talks about architectural design, Roadmap discussion going on. You can > argue that we could use a Slack > channel to do that, however, once an email is sent to the dev list it is > public and for everyone to see, Slack is a messaging platform, hence users > can delete the messages for whatever reason. > > I can add more documentation in Contributing.rst to explain which medium > should be used. > > Regards, > Kaxil > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 10:08 PM Anton Zayniev <anton.zain...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > That was me, got mixed my mail accounts. > > Regarding problem 4: probably we should explain to newcomers not only how > > to use dev lists, but also why we use it. Dev list was just a weird legacy > > solution until I've heard about Apache requirements and SE indexing . > > > > Anton > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 00:43 A Z <anton.zain...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > 1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it > > > provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to answer > > and > > > can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes > > you'd > > > like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl). Slack/Gitter > > > provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email is > > > very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to get > > > rid of. > > > > > > 2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better than > > > usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I > > > switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages: > > > a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it > > > b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting, > > underscoring, > > > indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client, but > > It > > > is way harder to navigate there. > > > c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different branches, > > so > > > it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole > > > discussion (or vice-versa). > > > d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to > > reread > > > some points in the discussion. > > > e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, etc). > > > They're not that crucial but make communication easier. > > > f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive > > there. > > > Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort. > > > > > > 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still > > just > > > Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion. > > > > > > 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to mail > > > list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the community > > > then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think the > > > main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of > > > developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar > > > messaging tool. > > > > > > On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <jarek.pot...@polidea.com> wrote: > > > > I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight > > (@Anton > > > > Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next year > > on > > > > Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some effort > > > into. > > > > So I would love to learn more. > > > > Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like to > > try > > > > to use the https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org > > to > > > > respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ? > > > > > > > > - What I really love about email interface is the built-in > > > asynchronous > > > > communication (thus slowness). I never expect response immediately, > > > nor > > > > provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache > > Way. > > > > People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different > > > > schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and > > > expected. > > > > This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this > > > > something that bothers people who do not like mail interface > > (Anton?) > > > is > > > > your expectation about immediacy of communication? > > > > - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used > > > > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ? like > > > > "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that different > > from > > > > Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years now > > as > > > my > > > > only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked back > > > after > > > > switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and useful > > > it is > > > > to use web interface for writing emails or messages? > > > > - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices? > > > > - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with > > > quoting > > > > etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much > > > better in > > > > it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother you > > > Anton > > > > with those? > > > > > > > > J. > > > > > > > > > > > > >
