Thanks Ted for your so nice words, we can't make it without ASF and mentors here. We learnt a lot during the incubating and daily work.
The Apache Roadshow is great event and Kaiyunshe did great job, would love to see more contribution like localization and more events soon:) Best Regards! --------------------- Luke Han On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Ted Liu <t...@microsoft.com> wrote: > Hi Luke, Apache Kylin is a hero project to me and many Chinese developers. > In my humble opinion "Elite" is not just about efforts and achievements, > but also capabilities, including project management and communication > skills, esp. using English. Anyhow, choosing proper English wording to > avoid misunderstanding remains a big challenge to me. But I learned one > this time. :-) > > > Ted > ________________________________ > 发件人: Luke Han<mailto:luke...@gmail.com> > 发送时间: 2015/11/21 22:39 > 收件人: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> > 抄送: nic...@hedhman.org<mailto:nic...@hedhman.org> > 主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China > Community > > Hi Ted L, > I don't think "elites" is good idea here:) we just work very hard to > learn the Apache Way, to engage world wide community and develop our > project for people really need. Many efforts have been spent in spare time > from our committers with their passion and willing to contribution, and the > same thing could be found from other community especially in Spark one, > there are many people from here who are better than us:) > > > Best Regards! > --------------------- > > Luke Han > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Ted Liu <t...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > My apologies if misunderstood from Ted Dunning's earlier comment: " I was > > a mentor on kylin and worried about English being a problem for > > contribution. The real problem is that apache is partially defined by the > > use of English to allow as wide a participation as possible." > > > > I trust Luke and his team are very capable of English communication > > effectively. It is just that it is still minority of such elites in China > > dev community so far and that's the reason why Chinese document for Kylin > > is still needed. > > > > Ted > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Luke Han [mailto:luke...@gmail.com] > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:08 PM > > To: dev@community.apache.org > > Cc: nic...@hedhman.org > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China > > Community > > > > >>I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin > > >>incubation > > project and trust that you were also >>aware of the frustrations from > both > > side due to language issues > > > > I don't this is true...Language is a little bit challenge as Ted Dunning > > and I have discussed in London and San Jose many times, yes, the Chinese > > developers are not native English speakers but what we have demonstrated > in > > Kylin community is both sides are happy to collaboration together, > language > > is not a problem. > > > > People intend to discuss with their native language which will bring > > problem to form "official localized community" eventfully, they will try > to > > stay within local community. We should engage and bring local developers, > > projects to ASF, not only Chinese and all of the world. > > > > There's WeChat group for Kylin but every time people raised question > there > > we will re-direct them to mailing list, to keep only one place to have > such > > discussion, even we have to help to translate to English. And the result > is > > good (IMO), we engaged many committers from local who are participating > in > > the community very well, in English. > > > > Localization is one good idea, which also should be counted as > > contribution with relative project, we could saw there are some Chinese > > docs of HBase, most of Kylin's docs now have both English and Chinese... > > > > > > Best Regards! > > --------------------- > > > > Luke Han > > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu <t...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of > > > "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more > > > devs become contributors and committers to popular projects from the > > > West and to help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both > > > internationally and domestically. It aims to be a bridge to overcome > > > language barriers and culture differences so that more talents and > > > projects can exchange. We certainly hope this bridge or group can use > > > the Apache name, at least in Chinese 阿帕奇, but not really a MUST if ASF > > > doesn’t support the idea or treat it as a beast. In this case, we'd > > > probably do it with another name not violating ASF trademark. > > > > > > Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by > > > experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, > > > contributors, etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may > > > be ranging from big data, cloud computing, dev language/framework, > > > community development (including events, meetups, localization, travel > > assistance...), etc. > > > > > > I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin > > > incubation project and trust that you were also aware of the > > > frustrations from both side due to language issues (and maybe > > not-so-obvious culture difference). > > > Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache > > > Storm project. Both side probably felt frustrated along the way. Even > > > though there are more English-capable IT people in China nowadays, the > > > pains and misunderstandings of using non-native languages still exist. > > > > > > Due to the much bigger user and dev base in China, I'd put much > > > heavier weigh on hot projects from the West, e.g. Spark, Hadoop, etc. > > > over the Chinese-originated projects like Kylin. So the localization > > > priority is obvious. > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunn...@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:33 PM > > > To: dev@community.apache.org > > > Cc: nic...@hedhman.org > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache > > > China Community > > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > I think apache can help you with some needs, but not all. Apache is > > > enthusiastic about helping people interact with our English-centric > > > mailing lists. Apache would likely help you figure out how to set up > > > Chinese language open source projects as well. > > > > > > I don't understand if that is what you want. You say "within apache". > > > But I also thought you wanted to help developers who don't have enough > > English. > > > > > > It sounds like you need more than one answer to more than one question. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Nov 21, 2015, at 19:24, Ted Liu <t...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Our initiative wants/desires to be inside of ASF as close as > > > > possible > > > and to avoid any trademark violation. If it is a no-go, I guess the > > > volunteer group here will still do the right things to help enable and > > > motivate developers and projects, with or without ASF’s > trademark/banner. > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com] > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:46 PM > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org > > > > Cc: nic...@hedhman.org > > > > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache > > > > China Community > > > > > > > > Why do those pioneers need a place outside of the ASF to do that? If > > > they do need a place outside the ASF why does it need an Apache logo on > > it? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei...@gmail.com] > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:17 AM > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org > > > > Cc: nic...@hedhman.org > > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache > > > > China Community > > > > > > > > +1 for a formal community project in China. > > > > > > > > There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers > > > > in > > > China are developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation). > > > > > > > > A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very > > > active at ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very > > > difficult to happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in > English. > > > There are about 5 million college graduates each year in China, and i > > > think there is a great potential to increase the number of > > > contributors from Apache community in China. > > > > > > > > Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get > > > together, discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It > > > would be very helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up > > > to work on this. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Lei > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu <t...@microsoft.com> > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Hi Niclas, > > > >> > > > >> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be > > > >> formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of > > > >> forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the > > > >> grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here. > > > >> Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or > > > >> directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC > > > >> members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together > > > >> voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese > > > >> talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and > > > >> enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the > > > >> experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who > > > >> people will trust, instead of any individual new to > > > ASF. > > > >> > > > >> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how > > > >> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. > > > >> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans > > > >> Wechat social group > > > >> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a > > > >> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your > > > >> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and > > > >> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. > > > >> The wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger > > > >> generation contributors would not tolerate. > > > >> > > > >> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the > > > >> sense of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are > > > >> still at infant stage in China. There are more than enough good > > > >> codes and events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real > > > >> blockers are language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed > > > >> China community/group can contribute. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Ted > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com] > > > >> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM > > > >> To: dev@community.apache.org > > > >> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache > > > >> China Community > > > >> > > > >> Ted, > > > >> 2 things... > > > >> > > > >> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011. > > > >> > > > >> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating > organization. > > > >> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not > > > >> command&control driven top-down structures. So, there is very > > > >> little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or > > they don't. > > > >> > > > >> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in > > > >> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older > > > >> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it > > > >> like a company, like a government or a religious organization. I > > > >> hope that you can appreciate the difference and channel your > > > >> enthusiasm slightly > > > differently. > > > >> > > > >> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but > > > >> I have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation > > > >> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we > > > >> are soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge > > this gap. > > > >> > > > >> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, > > > >> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the > > > >> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be > > > >> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors > > > >> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And > > > >> I am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect > > > contribution to ASF and other projects. > > > >> > > > >> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of > > > >> single big one. > > > >> > > > >> Keep up the positive work. > > > >> > > > >> Niclas > > > >> > > > >>> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <t...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Hi Apache Community Development PMC, > > > >>> > > > >>> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans > > > >>> in China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be > > possible? > > > >>> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below. > > > >>> > > > >>> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in > > > >>> China, such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and > > > >>> public > > > services. > > > >>> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and > > > >>> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE > > > >>> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe > > > >>> .o > > > >>> rg > > > >>> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6e > > > >>> f4 > > > >>> 08 > > > >>> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4CJ2i > > > >>> FC > > > >>> sX > > > >>> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d< > > > >>> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww. > > > >>> ka > > > >>> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c > > > >>> 23 > > > >>> 00 > > > >>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat > > > >>> a= KN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first > > > >>> ground-up open source alliance chartered to promote open source > > > >>> governance and technologies in China and Asia with over 50 > > > >>> community and enterprise members now) wish to bridge the gaps > > > >>> between the leading international > > > >> OSS communities, like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China. > > > >> The last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, > > > >> thought it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another > > > roadshow in China. > > > >>> > > > >>> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized by > > > >>> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with > > > >>> ASF's community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett > > > >>> Porter, David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason Dai. > > > >>> Please see more roadshow details here. > > > >>> > > > >>> - ASF "Foundation" blog > > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs. > > > >>> ap > > > >>> ac > > > >>> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c > > > >>> 23 > > > >>> 00 > > > >>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat > > > >>> a= > > > >>> m1 ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d< > > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs. > > > >>> ap > > > >>> ac > > > >>> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa > > > >>> 4b > > > >>> 8a > > > >>> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat > > > >>> a= BX 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d > > > >>> - @TheASF Twitter feed > > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ft > > > >>> wi > > > >>> tt > > > >>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl% > > > >>> 40 > > > >>> 06 > > > >>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf > > > >>> 86 > > > >>> f1 > > > >>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ikWU3 > > > >>> 7C > > > >>> Wt > > > >>> EOXwqg%3d< > > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ft > > > >>> wi > > > >>> tt > > > >>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl% > > > >>> 40 > > > >>> 06 > > > >>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf > > > >>> 86 > > > >>> f1 > > > >>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC7CW > > > >>> hd > > > >>> X0 > > > >>> GFRwPs%3d > > > >>> - annou...@apache.org<mailto:annou...@apache.org> (and archives) > > > >>> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list > > > >>> - > > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fap > > > >>> ac > > > >>> he > > > >>> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23008 > > > >>> 44 > > > >>> 57 > > > >>> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH1 > > > >>> M4 gu 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d< > > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fap > > > >>> ac > > > >>> he > > > >>> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a3 > > > >>> 14 > > > >>> f8 > > > >>> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=F1D > > > >>> dE AF N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d> > > > >>> home page > > > >>> > > > >>> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form a > > > >>> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended > > > >>> this roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time > > > >>> or were unaware of the events. So far, there already are many > > > >>> volunteers, including Apache members, PMC members, committers, > > > >>> contributors, developers and users, who are willing to join the > > > >>> China community steering committee and working groups to help grow > > > >>> the talents, projects and community in China and bridge between > > > >>> ASF and the fans in > > > >> China following the Apache way. > > > >>> > > > >>> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans > > > >>> in China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev > > > >>> would be greatly appreciated. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Ted Liu > > > >>> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding > > > >>> member of KAIYUANSHE > > > >> > > > > > >
