> I already know the answer :) I think I also know, but I‘m not sure. Many devs tend to be introverts and say nothing until asked explicitly. Direct question can uncover a lot of interesting things.
> Also, why didn’t you bring that up in that thread? Mea culpa, I read that thread thoroughly just today, after Jason put it as an example. ermouth 2015-09-14 19:58 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: > > > On 14 Sep 2015, at 18:49, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? > > > > Sorry, I played Civilization. What I learned was that saying ‘No’ at > right > > moment is much more important to have excellent score, then saying ‘Yes’ > > each time ) > > > >> For example, in the oauth2 discussion > > > > As for oAuth, I think @CouchDB has a lot of readers, and asking them does > > anyone use oauth, is more elegant way to decide should feature be > dropped. > > I already know the answer :) — Also, why didn’t you bring that up in that > thread? > > Best > Jan > -- > > > > > ermouth > > > > 2015-09-14 17:38 GMT+03:00 Jason Smith <[email protected]>: > > > >> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? > >> > >> I think the "yes-and" style is more about continuing the momentum of the > >> conversation, and also having fun! > >> > >> The "yes-and" style is independent of your opinion about the matter, or > the > >> facts of its consequences. To me, it is about being Socratic: say > "Sure!" > >> and then ask what the next steps are, or what the expected consequences > >> will be. > >> > >> For example, in the oauth2 discussion, I think Jan used a bit of > "yes-and" > >> style, when he said "Yes, let's keep oauth2, provided a developer fixes > its > >> bugs; otherwise not." And I think the community collectively answered: > >> "Yes, let's throw it out." > >> > >> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 8:22 PM, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>>> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other > >>>> that we have the best of the project in mind > >>> > >>> If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts are > >>> stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ with > >>> current approach – he is right. > >>> > >>> I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle. > Surely, > >> he > >>> trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely > >> ortogonal > >>> to trust. > >>> > >>> Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a solution. > >>> Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t > imagine, > >>> how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing > >> barbarian > >>> in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’. > >>> > >>>> That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired participating > >> here > >>> > >>> Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want to > >>> unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point out, > >> that > >>> if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by yourself > >>> first. > >>> > >>>> [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is false-positive > >>> feedback, when you > >>>> have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas. > >>> > >>> Absolutely. +1000. > >>> > >>> ermouth > >>> > >>> 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way > >>>>>> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. > >>>>> > >>>>> That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness is > >>>> only > >>>>> allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that people > >> are > >>>>> afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. How > >> can > >>> we > >>>>> avoid that? > >>>> > >>>> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we > >> have > >>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > >> disagreeing > >>>> with each other. > >>>> > >>>> If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll leave > the > >>>> project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good suggestions > >> about > >>>> our culture. How can I improve that? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely. > >>>> > >>>> I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with lazy > >>> excuses > >>>> of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially called > this > >>> out > >>>> in my original message, and now we already have a number of messages > on > >>>> this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. That’s the > >>> kind > >>>> of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here. > >>>> > >>>> Best > >>>> Jan > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ermouth > >>>>> > >>>>> 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Of course, this could have gone this way: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on how and > >>> why > >>>>>> this is supposed to work?” > >>>>>> “Here’s a bunch of links: …” > >>>>>> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to say > >>>> ‘but’, > >>>>>> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid that?” > >>>>>> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we > >>>> have > >>>>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > >>> disagreeing > >>>>>> with each other.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working… > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best > >>>>>> Jan > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like > >> “Starting > >>>> post > >>>>>>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of > >>> contributors > >>>>>>> with this. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to subscribe, > >> but > >>>> to > >>>>>>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more uncomfortable, > >>>> then > >>>>>>> posts, starting with ‘but‘. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions undiscussed – > >>>>>> nobody > >>>>>>> dare to say ‘but’. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ermouth > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Hi Jan > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like > >>> that > >>>> we > >>>>>>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." feedback > >>> styles > >>>>>>>>> and how they are different? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls our previous > >>>>>>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for picking on your > >>>>>> example > >>>>>>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I don’t mean to > >>>>>> re-play > >>>>>>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single out > >> anyone > >>> in > >>>>>>>> particular, so I changed things a little): > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “But…”-style: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody uses that.” > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “…” > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original suggestion > >>> leaves > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> project> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “Yes, and…”-style: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important! We still > >>> have > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@ mailing > >>> list > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?” > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@ isn’t as > >>> inviting a > >>>>>>>> name as design@ is.” > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what would be > >> even > >>>> more > >>>>>>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine that our > >>> mailing > >>>>>> list > >>>>>>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin with, maybe > >>> we > >>>>>>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> <fruitful conversation continues> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> * * * > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style is a lot more > >>>>>> efficient, > >>>>>>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the first place, so > >>>>>> cutting > >>>>>>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that our #1 > >> purpose > >>>> as > >>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having more > >>> contributors > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term success. It > >>> makes > >>>>>> sure > >>>>>>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more diverse ideas > >>>> making > >>>>>>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done overall. > >>>> Long-term, > >>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more weeks, but it > >>>> does > >>>>>>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the project right > >>>>>> after, > >>>>>>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest or > >> simply > >>>>>> burned > >>>>>>>> out. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> * * * > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best > >>>>>>>> Jan > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >>>>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > -- > Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >
