> On 14 Sep 2015, at 19:17, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I already know the answer :) > > I think I also know, but I‘m not sure. Many devs tend to be introverts and > say nothing until asked explicitly. Direct question can uncover a lot of > interesting things.
I’m in touch with a lot of end-users as part of my day-work, I think I have a representative sample here :) In general, I’d be happy to move to a questionnaire-based approach, but I think we can skip that for this one :) > Also, why didn’t you bring that up in that thread? > > Mea culpa, I read that thread thoroughly just today, after Jason put it as > an example. Ah, no worries :) Best Jan -- > > ermouth > > 2015-09-14 19:58 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: > >> >>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 18:49, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? >>> >>> Sorry, I played Civilization. What I learned was that saying ‘No’ at >> right >>> moment is much more important to have excellent score, then saying ‘Yes’ >>> each time ) >>> >>>> For example, in the oauth2 discussion >>> >>> As for oAuth, I think @CouchDB has a lot of readers, and asking them does >>> anyone use oauth, is more elegant way to decide should feature be >> dropped. >> >> I already know the answer :) — Also, why didn’t you bring that up in that >> thread? >> >> Best >> Jan >> -- >> >>> >>> ermouth >>> >>> 2015-09-14 17:38 GMT+03:00 Jason Smith <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? >>>> >>>> I think the "yes-and" style is more about continuing the momentum of the >>>> conversation, and also having fun! >>>> >>>> The "yes-and" style is independent of your opinion about the matter, or >> the >>>> facts of its consequences. To me, it is about being Socratic: say >> "Sure!" >>>> and then ask what the next steps are, or what the expected consequences >>>> will be. >>>> >>>> For example, in the oauth2 discussion, I think Jan used a bit of >> "yes-and" >>>> style, when he said "Yes, let's keep oauth2, provided a developer fixes >> its >>>> bugs; otherwise not." And I think the community collectively answered: >>>> "Yes, let's throw it out." >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 8:22 PM, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other >>>>>> that we have the best of the project in mind >>>>> >>>>> If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts are >>>>> stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ with >>>>> current approach – he is right. >>>>> >>>>> I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle. >> Surely, >>>> he >>>>> trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely >>>> ortogonal >>>>> to trust. >>>>> >>>>> Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a solution. >>>>> Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t >> imagine, >>>>> how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing >>>> barbarian >>>>> in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’. >>>>> >>>>>> That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired participating >>>> here >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want to >>>>> unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point out, >>>> that >>>>> if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by yourself >>>>> first. >>>>> >>>>>> [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is false-positive >>>>> feedback, when you >>>>>> have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas. >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely. +1000. >>>>> >>>>> ermouth >>>>> >>>>> 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way >>>>>>>> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness is >>>>>> only >>>>>>> allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that people >>>> are >>>>>>> afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. How >>>> can >>>>> we >>>>>>> avoid that? >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we >>>> have >>>>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem >>>> disagreeing >>>>>> with each other. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll leave >> the >>>>>> project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good suggestions >>>> about >>>>>> our culture. How can I improve that? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with lazy >>>>> excuses >>>>>> of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially called >> this >>>>> out >>>>>> in my original message, and now we already have a number of messages >> on >>>>>> this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. That’s the >>>>> kind >>>>>> of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ermouth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, this could have gone this way: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on how and >>>>> why >>>>>>>> this is supposed to work?” >>>>>>>> “Here’s a bunch of links: …” >>>>>>>> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to say >>>>>> ‘but’, >>>>>>>> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid that?” >>>>>>>> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we >>>>>> have >>>>>>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem >>>>> disagreeing >>>>>>>> with each other.” >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working… >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best >>>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like >>>> “Starting >>>>>> post >>>>>>>>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of >>>>> contributors >>>>>>>>> with this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to subscribe, >>>> but >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more uncomfortable, >>>>>> then >>>>>>>>> posts, starting with ‘but‘. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions undiscussed – >>>>>>>> nobody >>>>>>>>> dare to say ‘but’. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ermouth >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jan >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like >>>>> that >>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." feedback >>>>> styles >>>>>>>>>>> and how they are different? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls our previous >>>>>>>>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for picking on your >>>>>>>> example >>>>>>>>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I don’t mean to >>>>>>>> re-play >>>>>>>>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single out >>>> anyone >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> particular, so I changed things a little): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “But…”-style: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody uses that.” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “…” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original suggestion >>>>> leaves >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> project> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “Yes, and…”-style: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important! We still >>>>> have >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@ mailing >>>>> list >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@ isn’t as >>>>> inviting a >>>>>>>>>> name as design@ is.” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what would be >>>> even >>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine that our >>>>> mailing >>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin with, maybe >>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <fruitful conversation continues> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> * * * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style is a lot more >>>>>>>> efficient, >>>>>>>>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the first place, so >>>>>>>> cutting >>>>>>>>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that our #1 >>>> purpose >>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having more >>>>> contributors >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term success. It >>>>> makes >>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more diverse ideas >>>>>> making >>>>>>>>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done overall. >>>>>> Long-term, >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more weeks, but it >>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the project right >>>>>>>> after, >>>>>>>>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest or >>>> simply >>>>>>>> burned >>>>>>>>>> out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> * * * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best >>>>>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >>>>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >> >> -- Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
