Thank you, Toni. It's a good read that clarifies my thoughts :)
Toshiya On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 1:16 AM Jason Porter <lightguar...@apache.org> wrote: > This is looking really good, thank you, Toni. Excellent work. > > On 2025/02/05 14:49:21 Toni Rikkola wrote: > > Ok I added references for reasoning and how others are doing this. > > > > I also refactored the template for a proposal step. The request came > from a > > QA community member and this would help with the development-testing > > process. > > > > If nothing else comes up. I will open a vote on Monday, that way we get > > office days for voting time. > > > > Toni > > > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2025 at 10:59 AM Toni Rikkola <trikk...@redhat.com> > wrote: > > > > > #1 > > > I had a chat with Francisco in DMs. Trying to keep the actual voting > out > > > of the thread since it is a huge topic for us and for that reason we > should > > > isolate the problem and solve it in a dedicated thread. > > > > > > #2 > > > A QA community member has made some good points on what they would > expect > > > a proposal to include related to the Definition of Ready and Done. I > have > > > not done any changes based on that, but will do and inform this thread > on > > > every wiki page update. The goal is to have required and preferred > topics > > > similar to JEP 2: JEP Template <https://openjdk.org/jeps/2> > > > > > > #3 > > > As we can all see the Documentation jumped directly from discussion to > > > vote. While the discussion part was moderated by Toshiya and he worked > on a > > > proposal base in discussion, the vote now has added content in it. > Since it > > > is a vote and also a comment in the thread from the vote lead says > > > discussion has ended, giving a vote is the only way to interact. > > > > > > Skipping a step is still possible with the guideline I am proposing > here. > > > Problem with a missing proposal step is, no community interaction can > be > > > taken after the assignees have agreed to act on something. You can not > > > change what is in the vote. It is a take it or leave it situation. You > can > > > leave a statement and perhaps the lead of the vote does a revote. The > > > current proposal has several items in it, with a separate proposal > thread > > > each problematic item could be voted separately, then adjusting the > > > proposal with the vote results. > > > > > > Taking all the steps results in a more open community. Increasing the > > > feeling that we are actually a community that works together. Going > > > directly to a VOTE or in the worst case to a PR with a significant > change > > > is easily seen as blackmailing and it adds friction. The steps do not > slow > > > you down. What I am doing here right now would take less than a week > if I > > > was in a hurry with this. > > > > > > FYI [PROPOSAL][VOTE] is used by many teams, in this guideline it > would be > > > just a [VOTE] (I don't think it matters how you write it). > > > > > > Toni > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 2:17 PM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < > > > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Im king of puzzled > > >> So, giving a -1 on a valid technical ground is "blocking attitude", > > >> requires a counter proposal and a commitment of resources > > >> And it seems that a -1 on a "procedure formality" (unless every PR > > >> requires > > >> a proposal in the list) is a valid argument, does not require a > counter > > >> proposal and non commitment of resources. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 12:47 PM Toni Rikkola <trikk...@redhat.com> > wrote: > > >> > > >> > Ok, so that decision followed the path ticket->PR without mailing > list. > > >> The > > >> > PR counts as a voting location and Porcelli is giving a -1 with a > valid > > >> > argument. > > >> > It is always possible to escalate to ML and that is what Porcelli is > > >> > asking. > > >> > > > >> > I did not yet include voting rules in this proposed guideline, but > that > > >> -1 > > >> > needs to be challenged if there are intentions to invalidate it. > > >> > The -1 is due to a difference we are planning to have compared to > Apache > > >> > practice so the mailing list is a good place to continue on that. > > >> > > > >> > Toni > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 12:54 PM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < > > >> > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Hi Toni, > > >> > > > > >> > > One question, how do we manage to make all the aspects we are > > >> discussing > > >> > > here with the day by day reality of how this community is really > > >> working? > > >> > > See > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1749#issuecomment-2630540808 > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:48 AM Toni Rikkola <trikk...@redhat.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > Sure Jason. I don't think anything I wrote here is original. > Apache > > >> > > > provides the minimum and then projects like Kafka add more on > top of > > >> > > that. > > >> > > > I will find the different takes on this and reference them in > the > > >> wiki > > >> > > > page. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Toni > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2025 at 6:04 PM Jason Porter < > > >> lightguar...@apache.org> > > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I have not given this a thorough read through just yet, but > on a > > >> > quick > > >> > > > > read through, I'm not seeing any references for things. I > think we > > >> > need > > >> > > > to > > >> > > > > stay grounded with what the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) > has > > >> in > > >> > > place > > >> > > > > (I know it isn't a lot) in general, and we can also pull ideas > > >> from > > >> > > other > > >> > > > > Top Level Projects (TLPs). I know this proposal idea for > example > > >> is > > >> > > used > > >> > > > in > > >> > > > > a couple of places: Groovy, Kafka, and probably others, I > know for > > >> > sure > > >> > > > > those two use a similar system. I don't think it makes sense > for > > >> us > > >> > to > > >> > > > > reinvent the wheel if we don't need to. It also helps others > that > > >> are > > >> > > > > familiar with the way things are done in other projects to > > >> understand > > >> > > > > where/why we made decisions. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Toni, would you be able to add references to the proposal wiki > > >> page? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > On 2025/01/31 08:20:00 Toni Rikkola wrote: > > >> > > > > > Hello, > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > This is a proposal I created based on the discussion that > > >> happened > > >> > in > > >> > > > > > [DISCUSSION] Discussion, proposal and voting process-Apache > Mail > > >> > > > Archives > > >> > > > > > < > > >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/tzqhh1qg9yr7v6wk0bwnk921y15yr0qk> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > It is time to eat my own dog food and prove discussion is > not > > >> just > > >> > a > > >> > > > > group > > >> > > > > > of people dreaming. This proposal will lead to a vote and > action > > >> > will > > >> > > > be > > >> > > > > > taken if the vote is approved. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > The goal I have is to form community guidelines and this is > the > > >> > first > > >> > > > > item > > >> > > > > > and step we need to agree on. > > >> > > > > > Everyone is welcomed to give feedback and suggest > additionals, > > >> > > removal, > > >> > > > > > fixing a type or change of wording. Preferred way is to use > this > > >> > > list, > > >> > > > > but > > >> > > > > > if you direct message me I will reference the request here > > >> > > anonymously. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > I will edit the wiki page based on requests I see fitting > and > > >> then > > >> > > pass > > >> > > > > it > > >> > > > > > to voting once I feel it is good enough. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > [PROPOSAL] Community guideline to define discussion, > proposal > > >> and > > >> > > vote > > >> > > > - > > >> > > > > > Apache KIE - Apache Software Foundation > > >> > > > > > < > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KIE/%5BPROPOSAL%5D+Community+guideline+to+define+discussion%2C+proposal+and+vote > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you > > >> > > > > > Toni Rikkola > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > > >> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@kie.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@kie.apache.org > >
