Thanks Isabel and Sergio for the feedback and evaluation criteria. Based on the discussion I see mixed views in the community. To summarize my suggestion: 1. Setup user@ list and staff with volunteers to respond to user requests. 2. Make changes based on feedback to grow the user list organically. 3. Decide after 6 months how to continue based on user community adoption and conversion into contributors. 4. Start tracking how many people from discussion forums convert to contributors.
I will start a lazy vote on my suggestion tomorrow unless somebody has strong objections and would like to discuss further. Steffen On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:47 AM Sergio Fernández <[email protected]> wrote: > Honestly, I'm quite surprised of the level of the reactions on this thread. > When I started it, I just wanted to expand the community with a tool that, > even some people consider it "old fashion", it has been proved to help many > other Apache projects to foster their community in the past. > > I guess, until people change their mindset, stop to think as scientist, get > rid of the affiliation and start to build an open source community, this > podling will struggle to move forward. > > At least I hope the proposal Sebastian have made may be acceptable for most > of the people who are reluctant to adopt the ASF communication channels. > > On Jun 20, 2018 18:38, "Chris Olivier" <[email protected]> wrote: > > +1 > > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:43 AM Steffen Rochel <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > I had a discussion yesterday with Jun Wu ([email protected]) to get a > > better understanding about the concerns raised, that users might get > > confused and maintenance efforts. > > I agree with Jim that building and fostering the community is important. > > First of all, I suggest we should be open minded and not make claims that > > we have a good understanding of user preferences. We might have insights > > about preferences of current users (which I also would question as we > > sampled only a small set), but we certainly don't have insight about the > > preferences of new users we are trying to attract. > > In such situation it might be better to run an experiment, offer choices > > and collect real feedback - lets be customer focussed. > > My suggestion is to establish a user@ list and support the list with a > > volunteer subset of contributors and committers to minimize the > maintenance > > impact on the whole community. > > After a reasonable time like 6 months we can evaluate the adoption of > user@ > > and effort to support and can make an informed, data driven decision how > to > > proceed. > > > > I recommend to create the user@ list and call for volunteers to support > > the > > list. > > > > Regards, > > Steffen > > > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 8:10 AM Hagay Lupesko <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Jim, > > > > > > Earlier on the thread you suggested to clarify and expand on the usage > > of a > > > user@ mailing list and how it is useful for a project. > > > > > > It may be helpful for the community to learn a bit more about it. Could > > you > > > expand and/or share relevant links and examples? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Hagay > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 07:31 Jim Jagielski <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Just so we are clear: building and fostering a community takes > effort. > > > > Either it is something important to the project, or it's not. > > > > > > > > My assumption is that It Is. > > > > > > > > > On Jun 18, 2018, at 8:59 PM, YiZhi Liu <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I am personally not a big fan of mailing list but agree with Thomas > > > > > that we may get extra users, which worth a try. > > > > > On the other hand, I also have concern that we do not have a > > community > > > > > big enough to support multiple forums. If people asked questions > but > > > > > got no response, that can be worse than not having the mailing list > > at > > > > > all. > > > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:46 PM Thomas DELTEIL > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> I was actually the one stating that we didn't need a user mailing > > list > > > > >> during the Seattle meetup, given all the reasons already exposed > > > above. > > > > >> > > > > >> However given what proponents of a mailing list said, I personally > > > > wouldn't > > > > >> mind adding a new channel as a user mailing list, and monitoring > it. > > > > There > > > > >> seems to be a subset of users, used to apache projects, that > > wouldn't > > > > use > > > > >> the forum but would use a mailing list. Though I think it is not > as > > > > >> feature-rich as the forum and there is a risk of dilution of > > > > information. > > > > >> It is more about reaching those extra users. If we see a dilution > of > > > > >> traffic on the forum towards the mailing list (~currently 100 > > > > posts/week) > > > > >> then maybe we can reconsider our assumptions? > > > > >> > > > > >> All the best, > > > > >> > > > > >> Thomas Delteil > > > > >> > > > > >> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 17:30 Pedro Larroy < > > > [email protected]> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> I agree with Tianqi, Eric and others. We shouldn't dilute the > > > community > > > > >>> with another forum. Disqus is already working and has healthy > > > > >>> participation, you can get an email digest if you so desire. > > > > Subscribing to > > > > >>> a mailing list to get a question answered is quite a heavyweight > > > > investment > > > > >>> for many people and users who might not have the resources nor > > mental > > > > >>> bandwidth to receive more email volume in their inboxes. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:19 AM Tianqi Chen < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> The problem of having multiple separate channels of > communication > > is > > > > that > > > > >>>> users get confused, and the cost of maintenance goes up(people > > have > > > to > > > > >>>> watch both). As the current community was at discuss forum and > > many > > > > users > > > > >>>> prefer it, having a mail-list is only a burden we will bring > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Tianqi > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Jim Jagielski <[email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost and > > low-overhead > > > > way > > > > >>> of > > > > >>>>> *increasing* the user community and providing an extra level of > > > > >>> support. > > > > >>>>> Unless there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT the case, I > > > would > > > > >>>>> recommend we create the list. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On Jun 16, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Tianqi Chen < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> So unless there is a strong evidence that our community users > > > > prefers > > > > >>>> the > > > > >>>>>> mail-list, I would recommend we keep the current way > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Tianqi > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández < > > > > [email protected] > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Are we targeting just Seattle as our community? I really hope > > we > > > > are > > > > >>>>>>> thinking a bit beyond that... > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:22 Tianqi Chen < > > > [email protected]> > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> I remember last time during the mxnet meetup in Seattle, we > > did > > > a > > > > >>>>> survey, > > > > >>>>>>>> and most users preferred the current discuss forum. So I > would > > > say > > > > >>> we > > > > >>>>>>> stick > > > > >>>>>>>> with that given the user community prefers that > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Tianqi > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Sergio Fernández < > > > > >>> [email protected] > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Then, if everybody agree, let's request the mailing list > > > creation > > > > >>> to > > > > >>>>>>>> INFRA > > > > >>>>>>>>> ;-) > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Marco, I wouldn't do that. Typically developers are also > > > > >>> subscribed > > > > >>>>>>>> there, > > > > >>>>>>>>> since they may be the most informed people for answering > > users' > > > > >>>>>>>> questions. > > > > >>>>>>>>> But the topics discussed there may not be of the interest > for > > > > pure > > > > >>>>>>>>> development purposes. Some discussions will jump from > users@ > > > to > > > > >>>> dev@, > > > > >>>>>>>> but > > > > >>>>>>>>> at a different level. So I wouldn't forward one mailing > list > > to > > > > >>> the > > > > >>>>>>>> other. > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:01 Marco de Abreu > > > > >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I think nobody was opposed to it in the past, right? > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I'd propose that all emails automatically get copied to > dev@ > > > to > > > > >>>>>>> ensure > > > > >>>>>>>>>> high > > > > >>>>>>>>>> visibility initially. What do you think? > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian <[email protected]> schrieb am Fr., 15. Juni 2018, > > > > 20:51: > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I have already proposed this many times in the past and > > would > > > > >>>>>>>> strongly > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> encourage it. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> -s > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 15.06.2018 21:56, Sergio Fernández wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> is there any good reason why the podling doesn't have a > > > users@ > > > > >>>>>>>>> mailing > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> list > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> yet? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly speaking, I'm not a big fan of the other tools > > the > > > > >>>>>>> podling > > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> using. Slack and Web forums a cool tools, and I used > them > > a > > > > lot > > > > >>>>>>> in > > > > >>>>>>>>>> other > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contexts. But when it comes to transparency and > community, > > > > >>>>>>> mailing > > > > >>>>>>>>>> lists > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> play a crucial role in the Apache Way. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Users are the most important asset a project can have. > > Even > > > > >>> more > > > > >>>>>>>> than > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> developers, believe me. So I think it's time to create a > > > > users@ > > > > >>>>>>>>>> mailing > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> list for to helping MXNet grow its community beyong the > > core > > > > >>>>>>> team. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Yizhi Liu > > > > > DMLC member > > > > > Amazon Web Services > > > > > Vancouver, Canada > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
