Honestly, I'm quite surprised of the level of the reactions on this thread. When I started it, I just wanted to expand the community with a tool that, even some people consider it "old fashion", it has been proved to help many other Apache projects to foster their community in the past.
I guess, until people change their mindset, stop to think as scientist, get rid of the affiliation and start to build an open source community, this podling will struggle to move forward. At least I hope the proposal Sebastian have made may be acceptable for most of the people who are reluctant to adopt the ASF communication channels. On Jun 20, 2018 18:38, "Chris Olivier" <[email protected]> wrote: +1 On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:43 AM Steffen Rochel <[email protected]> wrote: > I had a discussion yesterday with Jun Wu ([email protected]) to get a > better understanding about the concerns raised, that users might get > confused and maintenance efforts. > I agree with Jim that building and fostering the community is important. > First of all, I suggest we should be open minded and not make claims that > we have a good understanding of user preferences. We might have insights > about preferences of current users (which I also would question as we > sampled only a small set), but we certainly don't have insight about the > preferences of new users we are trying to attract. > In such situation it might be better to run an experiment, offer choices > and collect real feedback - lets be customer focussed. > My suggestion is to establish a user@ list and support the list with a > volunteer subset of contributors and committers to minimize the maintenance > impact on the whole community. > After a reasonable time like 6 months we can evaluate the adoption of user@ > and effort to support and can make an informed, data driven decision how to > proceed. > > I recommend to create the user@ list and call for volunteers to support > the > list. > > Regards, > Steffen > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 8:10 AM Hagay Lupesko <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Jim, > > > > Earlier on the thread you suggested to clarify and expand on the usage > of a > > user@ mailing list and how it is useful for a project. > > > > It may be helpful for the community to learn a bit more about it. Could > you > > expand and/or share relevant links and examples? > > > > Thank you, > > Hagay > > > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 07:31 Jim Jagielski <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Just so we are clear: building and fostering a community takes effort. > > > Either it is something important to the project, or it's not. > > > > > > My assumption is that It Is. > > > > > > > On Jun 18, 2018, at 8:59 PM, YiZhi Liu <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am personally not a big fan of mailing list but agree with Thomas > > > > that we may get extra users, which worth a try. > > > > On the other hand, I also have concern that we do not have a > community > > > > big enough to support multiple forums. If people asked questions but > > > > got no response, that can be worse than not having the mailing list > at > > > > all. > > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:46 PM Thomas DELTEIL > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I was actually the one stating that we didn't need a user mailing > list > > > >> during the Seattle meetup, given all the reasons already exposed > > above. > > > >> > > > >> However given what proponents of a mailing list said, I personally > > > wouldn't > > > >> mind adding a new channel as a user mailing list, and monitoring it. > > > There > > > >> seems to be a subset of users, used to apache projects, that > wouldn't > > > use > > > >> the forum but would use a mailing list. Though I think it is not as > > > >> feature-rich as the forum and there is a risk of dilution of > > > information. > > > >> It is more about reaching those extra users. If we see a dilution of > > > >> traffic on the forum towards the mailing list (~currently 100 > > > posts/week) > > > >> then maybe we can reconsider our assumptions? > > > >> > > > >> All the best, > > > >> > > > >> Thomas Delteil > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 17:30 Pedro Larroy < > > [email protected]> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> I agree with Tianqi, Eric and others. We shouldn't dilute the > > community > > > >>> with another forum. Disqus is already working and has healthy > > > >>> participation, you can get an email digest if you so desire. > > > Subscribing to > > > >>> a mailing list to get a question answered is quite a heavyweight > > > investment > > > >>> for many people and users who might not have the resources nor > mental > > > >>> bandwidth to receive more email volume in their inboxes. > > > >>> > > > >>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:19 AM Tianqi Chen < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> The problem of having multiple separate channels of communication > is > > > that > > > >>>> users get confused, and the cost of maintenance goes up(people > have > > to > > > >>>> watch both). As the current community was at discuss forum and > many > > > users > > > >>>> prefer it, having a mail-list is only a burden we will bring > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Tianqi > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Jim Jagielski <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost and > low-overhead > > > way > > > >>> of > > > >>>>> *increasing* the user community and providing an extra level of > > > >>> support. > > > >>>>> Unless there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT the case, I > > would > > > >>>>> recommend we create the list. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Jun 16, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Tianqi Chen < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> So unless there is a strong evidence that our community users > > > prefers > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>>> mail-list, I would recommend we keep the current way > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Tianqi > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández < > > > [email protected] > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Are we targeting just Seattle as our community? I really hope > we > > > are > > > >>>>>>> thinking a bit beyond that... > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:22 Tianqi Chen < > > [email protected]> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> I remember last time during the mxnet meetup in Seattle, we > did > > a > > > >>>>> survey, > > > >>>>>>>> and most users preferred the current discuss forum. So I would > > say > > > >>> we > > > >>>>>>> stick > > > >>>>>>>> with that given the user community prefers that > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Tianqi > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Sergio Fernández < > > > >>> [email protected] > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Then, if everybody agree, let's request the mailing list > > creation > > > >>> to > > > >>>>>>>> INFRA > > > >>>>>>>>> ;-) > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Marco, I wouldn't do that. Typically developers are also > > > >>> subscribed > > > >>>>>>>> there, > > > >>>>>>>>> since they may be the most informed people for answering > users' > > > >>>>>>>> questions. > > > >>>>>>>>> But the topics discussed there may not be of the interest for > > > pure > > > >>>>>>>>> development purposes. Some discussions will jump from users@ > > to > > > >>>> dev@, > > > >>>>>>>> but > > > >>>>>>>>> at a different level. So I wouldn't forward one mailing list > to > > > >>> the > > > >>>>>>>> other. > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:01 Marco de Abreu > > > >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I think nobody was opposed to it in the past, right? > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I'd propose that all emails automatically get copied to dev@ > > to > > > >>>>>>> ensure > > > >>>>>>>>>> high > > > >>>>>>>>>> visibility initially. What do you think? > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian <[email protected]> schrieb am Fr., 15. Juni 2018, > > > 20:51: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I have already proposed this many times in the past and > would > > > >>>>>>>> strongly > > > >>>>>>>>>>> encourage it. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> -s > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 15.06.2018 21:56, Sergio Fernández wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> is there any good reason why the podling doesn't have a > > users@ > > > >>>>>>>>> mailing > > > >>>>>>>>>>> list > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> yet? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly speaking, I'm not a big fan of the other tools > the > > > >>>>>>> podling > > > >>>>>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> using. Slack and Web forums a cool tools, and I used them > a > > > lot > > > >>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>> other > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contexts. But when it comes to transparency and community, > > > >>>>>>> mailing > > > >>>>>>>>>> lists > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> play a crucial role in the Apache Way. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Users are the most important asset a project can have. > Even > > > >>> more > > > >>>>>>>> than > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> developers, believe me. So I think it's time to create a > > > users@ > > > >>>>>>>>>> mailing > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> list for to helping MXNet grow its community beyong the > core > > > >>>>>>> team. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Yizhi Liu > > > > DMLC member > > > > Amazon Web Services > > > > Vancouver, Canada > > > > > > > > >
