Ahh. I see. I'm sure there's solution to the module dependency problem. I like best your idea of a dummy. Why do you need checks on entry points? Because you want it to fail gracefully in the absence of the real library? Isn't that nice-to-have for now? (we will tell the user in very clear words that this library is needed one way or the other)
Regarding if it is OK to automate this process so that user only needs to click a button: I don't see why not. As long as the user is made aware of what he's doing and is accepting an on-screen nb-javac license, etc. The IDE already allows to download plugins from various sources, also non-ASF or non Apache Licensed. This is no different. You really don't want to do a download task *outside* of the Platform. Because you don't have proprietary stuff like Oracle's deploy.jar you'll need to rely on Platform to find your way to Internet. Assuming the dependency problem can be solved, I'm hoping for the following solution: - The first time the IDE starts you'll be asked if you want to download and install nb-javac. In terms of development effort this is mainly an UI exercise. With the latest proxy improvements this will hopefully work for 95% of users without them having to do anything. Then there's 3% who we need to ask to input their proxy settings manually in Options (we can open the window for them if download task fails). - The last 2% are users where we just cannot make the download task work from within NetBeans. For these users we'll need manual instructions on what they need to do. nb-javac hosted on say Bitbucket as a mirror of hg.netbeans.org and the users download from bitbucket.com/<projectname>/downloads. Something like that. I'll gladly work on some of this. I feel very strongly about the need for a click-a-button solution. Lars PS: Regardless of the above it may still be a good idea to work in parallel on a long term solution, i.e. get rid of the dependency of nb-javac and replace with something else, but I feel the above is pretty straight-forward as an acceptable solution for the next 1-2 years. On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 7:40 AM, Jan Lahoda <[email protected]> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:09 PM, Lars Bruun-Hansen <[email protected] > > > wrote: > > > I think (a) is a major deviation from NetBeans' hallmark: plug-and-play, > > just install it and start programming. It is exactly this kind of thing > > we've accused Eclipse for over the years. If NetBeans started on that > path > > it would be ironic. I think it can only be justified if it is an > > intermediary solution because we really want to release something NOW. > And > > even then I feel it will be frowned upon and we may loose some users as a > > consequence. > > > > Re (b): This can be done when the IDE starts the first time. Then you'll > > have proxy resolution in place. Have the user accept the nb-javac > license, > > start a download task and do it all automatically. The user can decline > of > > course, but then he'll basically have an IDE which cannot be used for > Java > > development. I think this is an acceptable workflow. There are lots of > > examples from open source software where it has to happen like this (for > > legal reasons). The best solutions has this automated so it is really > just > > a click for the user. > > > > While I agree with that, it is not immediately obvious how to do this (or > if this is OK for an Apache product). As the modules depending on > libs.javacapi and libs.javacimpl are usually regular modules, a missing > dependency will trigger an "unsatisfied dependencies" dialog on startup and > the modules would be really disabled. Two possible solutions come to mind: > a) make all the modules eager (which would probably bring its own problems, > like the modules would be silently disabled if any deendency would be > missing, not only libs.javac{api,impl}); b) keep the libs.javac{api,impl} > modules, just don't put the library in them. Do manual checks on all entry > points (which may or may not be a significant number) to see if nb-javac is > available and do nothing if it is not. And install the nb-javac library > using module fragments (which one of the tricks the jdk-javac branch is > doing). > > Jan > > > > So, between (a) and (b), I vote for (b). > > > > As a side note I'll be launching even more PRs to make sure that NB can > > truly detect the user's proxy settings without having the user enter the > > proxy settings manually in NB. First step was PR161 (already integrated). > > More will come, for example so that NB will have WPAD support. The > > benchmark is what the browsers do. With a modern browser like > > Chrome/Firefox/Edge the user rarely needs to configure anything. The same > > should be true for NB: if the Chrome/FF/Edge can detect proxy settings > > without user intervention then so should NetBeans. Not there yet, but > we'll > > get there. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Neil C Smith <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 14 Nov 2017, 18:54 Jan Lahoda, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Another aspect is from where to download the library: I assume we > would > > > > need a reasonably stable place to which we could point the users. > > > > > > > > Are there any opinions on this? > > > > > > > > > > As before when this came up, as well as where it's downloaded from, I'd > > be > > > interested to know how it's going to be maintained there? It feels hard > > to > > > answer one question without the other? > > > > > > I also still wonder whether there's been further thought on asking the > > > OpenJDK project to host it (as ide-javac)? The last time I suggested > that > > > there was a feeling that it was too NetBeans specific, and other > projects > > > were moving to things like Language Server Protocol. Just for the > record > > > (as I mentioned to Jaroslav a while back) of the two LSP plugins for > > Java, > > > one is Eclipse based, and the other is using nb-javac. There is > > obviously a > > > wider need for the features it brings! > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Neil > > > > > > > -- > > > Neil C Smith > > > Artist & Technologist > > > www.neilcsmith.net > > > > > > Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - > www.praxislive.org > > > > > >
