Donald Woods asked about notices at the bottom of our web pages: > For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual
> trademarks? If you look at other websites such as: <snip> I don't suggest that we put a burden on anyone. I hope there will be a page at www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/> that will list all our trademarks. That will become the official list and the official notice. What I suggest is the following two sentences at the bottom of our web pages, in small print: Copyright (C) 2009 Apache Software Foundation. Licensed under Apache License 2.0 (see www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/> ). Apache and the Apache feather logo are trademarks of Apache Software Foundation. I don't consider that much of a burden. While those notices are not legally required, there are certain legal advantages to our including those notices (particularly a copyright notice!) in small print almost everywhere. If you prefer to replace that with a "Terms of Use" link, that's also effective, although I don't believe it offers the same legal advantages as explicit copyright notices on the pages themselves. But hey, we're not going to sue anyone anyway, so perhaps I'm being over-protective? Or you over-burdened? :-) All other notices would be entirely optional to the project, such as acknowledgement of Sun's "Java" trademark, or notice of the project's own trademarks. /Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald Woods [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:12 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected]; 'ASF PRC Team' > Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > > For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual > trademarks? If you look at other websites such as: > java.net > code.google.com > sourceforge.net > www.sun.com > www.ibm.com > www.hp.com > they don't list trademarks on their main website pages. Each have a > "Terms of Use" link at the bottom, which leads to a Legal page that > either contains trademark statements or links to a subpage which lists > the trademarks - > http://java.net/terms.csp - Section 5c > http://code.google.com/tos.html - Section 4 > http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitelegal/wiki/Terms%20of%20Use - > Section 6 > http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/ > http://www.ibm.com/legal/copytrade.shtml > http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/termsofuse.html > > Shouldn't we create a similar "Terms of Use" page (covering License, > Trademark, Privacy, ...) for all ASF projects to link to in the footer > of our web and wiki pages? > > > -Donald > > > Lawrence Rosen wrote: > > Hi Craig, > > > > I took your complaint to be about the complexities of trademark law, not > > about me. :-) I'm merely today's messenger with a confusing message. > > > > Here's an example that you may find useful, for a dessert website: > > > > ************** > > > > Welcome to the Jello Brand gelatin recipe cookbook, brought to you by > the > > Kraft Foods Company. > > > > Select among the following: > > * Flavors of Jello gelatin > > * Jello and Fruit: The Perfect Combination > > * Whipped Jello for a Romantic Evening Soiree > > * Feeding a large family with Jello > > * Textbook on the chemistry of Jello and other brands of gelatin > > > > *************** > > > > Notice that I slipped casually from strong trademark ("Jello brand > gelatin") > > to adjective ("Jello gelatin") to noun (just "Jello"), which is > unavoidable > > in casual speech, and perfectly legal. Trademark law fortunately doesn't > > require that we all take a refresher course in English grammar or > > continually utter certain magic words! > > > > Here's what I would expect in terms of branding Apache OpenJPA: > > > > 1. The OpenJPA website should start with a specific feather logo that > > identifies it as a website of the Apache Software Foundation. This logo > > should include the words "Apache Software Foundation" and a pointer to > our > > main website homepage, www.apache.org. In fact, if you click on that > logo > > you should go to the ASF homepage. > > > > 2. Somewhere prominent, the banner on the first page of the OpenJPA > website > > should identify the "Apache (TM) OpenJPA Project". That "TM" can be > fairly > > small, but not invisible. Then the body of the page can use the terms > > "OpenJPA project" or "OpenJPA team" or even "committers to OpenJPA" when > you > > mean your ASF project. > > > > 3. Then I expect the first prominent reference to the output of the > OpenJPA > > project to say that you produce and distribute "Apache OpenJPA (TM) > software > > that implements Sun's Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the > > transparent persistence of Java objects" (or whatever is appropriate and > > true). Again, the "TM" can be fairly small, but not invisible; if you > don't > > want to bother claiming a trademark on "OpenJPA", simply leave off that > TM. > > > > 4. From then on, when referring to the software, you can say things > like: > > * Unit tests for OpenJPA > > * Downloading OpenJPA software > > * OpenJPA is distributed under Apache License 2.0 > > * How is OpenJPA implemented? > > * Apache OpenJPA integrates with Apache Tomcat. > > * The sixth iteration of OpenJPA is complete! > > > > ...and lots of other casual uses that engineers should be able to utter > with > > ease and complete freedom. > > > > 5. At the bottom, in small but not invisible letters, include all the > > appropriate copyright and trademark and licensing notices to assert that > ASF > > is the owner of whatever intellectual property we claim. To be polite, > you > > can identify that "Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems (or Oracle)." > > > > /Larry > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:46 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > >> > >> Hi Larry, > >> > >> On May 18, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote: > >> > >>> Craig Russell complained: > >> First, let me be clear. I'm not complaining. I'm trying to understand > >> just what we need to do in our public face to be compliant with an > >> Apache policy that allows Apache to promote and enforce our marks. > >> > >> My questions really are just questions. They are not rhetorical or > >> argumentative. Please don't read any belligerence into the questions. > >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most > >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This > >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once > >>>> lawyers > >>>> get hold of it. > >>> I'm aware of the pain that causes, and I don't want to turn Apache > >>> web pages > >>> into legalese. > >>> > >>> The first major use of a trademark on a web page ought to be, in > >>> some way, a > >>> combination of the trademark as an adjective modifying the > >>> "official" noun. > >> The trouble for OpenJPA is that there's no "official" noun. "Software" > >> is certainly an appropriate noun, as are "program", "library", > >> "package", and "implementation". So should we choose for each project > >> an official noun and be consistent with its "first use" on each web > >> page? > >>> That is so you can educate your readers about your trademark and your > >>> product. But it needn't be in sentence form, nor even contain words > >>> in their > >>> normal English usages or sequence. There are lots of creative ways to > >>> introduce trademarks to the public. > >>> > >>> So I totally approve of your "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of > >>> Sun's > >>> Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent > >>> persistence of > >>> Java objects." > >> This confuses me. The use of OpenJPA here seems like a noun. > >>> > >>> You needn't say "OpenJPA software" since you said "OpenJPA > >>> implementation". > >> Not exactly. It doesn't say "OpenJPA implementation is Apache's > >> implementation". It would actually sound better to me to say "OpenJPA > >> software is Apache's implementation." > >> > >> So if it's not a noun, it would never be ok to say "OpenJPA is > >> <something>". It would have to be "OpenJPA Software is <something>." > >>> They sort of mean the same thing, I think. I'd want you to be more > >>> precise > >>> if I intended to file a trademark registration with the USPTO, but > >>> for a > >>> common law trademark, I think that works just fine. Maybe I'd ask that > >>> somewhere you say "click here to download Apache OpenJPA software." > >> That's easy to do once we understand the rules. > >> > >>> But otherwise, don't change that website. > >>> > >>> What I objected to in my previous email was the first sentence on your > >>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html page, "OpenJPA's unit > >>> tests are > >>> written using JUnit." That sentence doesn't give anyone a clue what > >>> noun the > >>> adjective OpenJPA modifies. Nor have I ever seen an apostrophe-s on an > >>> English adjective. :-) > >> Right, back to our noun versus adjective. The sentence doesn't make > >> sense with OpenJPA as an adjective. As an adjective, it could be > >> "OpenJPA unit tests", since part of the OpenJPA implementation > >> consists of unit tests. But OpenJPA is not just unit tests. It's also > >> a functional piece of software. > >> > >> But our official documentation is full of "OpenJPA as noun" and not > >> "OpenJPA as adjective". So I'm really struggling with whether it's > >> just the "first use" on a page that needs to use OpenJPA Software or > >> not. > >>> > >>> /Larry (with my English teacher hat on that I dug out of the very > >>> back of my > >>> closet) > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:10 PM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; [email protected] > >>>> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > >>>> > >>>> Hi Larry, > >>>> > >>>> On May 18, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> 3. Trademarks should be used as adjectives, not nouns. So the > >>>>> following > >>>>> sentence is incorrect trademark usage: "OpenJPA's unit tests are > >>>>> written > >>>>> using JUnit." Consider rewriting as "Unit tests for Apache OpenJPA > >>>>> persistence project software are written using the JUnit testing > >>>>> framework." > >>>>> Always assume that customers have to be taught to associate the > >>>>> trademark > >>>>> with the noun in modifies. Once they've done that in their minds, > >>>>> then you > >>>>> have a very valuable trademark. > >>>>> > >>>>> /Larry > >>>>> > >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most > >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This > >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once > >>>> lawyers > >>>> get hold of it. > >>>> > >>>> Where we say "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java > >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence > >>>> of > >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard > >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA." we would have to say, > >>>> instead, "OpenJPA software is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java > >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence > >>>> of > >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard > >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA software." > >>>> > >>>> Did I get this right? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> > >>>> Craig > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 8:49 AM > >>>>>> To: ASF PRC Team > >>>>>> Cc: [email protected] > >>>>>> Subject: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi PRC, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We've finished updating the OpenJPA web site master pages to > >>>>>> include > >>>>>> Apache trademarks in an obvious but not obtrusive way. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html is an example. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please let us know if this is in accordance with the current > >>>>>> trademark > >>>>>> notice policy. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Craig > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Craig L Russell > >>>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo > >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:[email protected] > >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > >>>>> > >>>> Craig L Russell > >>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo > >>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:[email protected] > >>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > >>> > >> Craig L Russell > >> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo > >> 408 276-5638 mailto:[email protected] > >> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > > > > > >
