Donald's a busy guy, not sure I'd want to say he's over-burdened but I think he's raising a good point.
Making one update isn't much of a burden but keeping it up to date could be. In addition Donald's suggestion of more consistent branding is a good thing (see Eclipse.org's projects [1]). I think the site specific stuff, #2 - #4, can be done on a site by site basis, but #1 & #5 seem fairly standard and a lot of sites would benefit from having a template that they could insert a logo into and apply to their site. Maybe this isn't the right mailing list to suggest it on, but having a template banner / footer might be well received by a lot of projects. [1] http://www.eclipse.org/projects/listofprojects.php -mike On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Lawrence Rosen <[email protected]> wrote: > Donald Woods asked about notices at the bottom of our web pages: > > > For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual > > > trademarks? If you look at other websites such as: > > <snip> > > > > I don't suggest that we put a burden on anyone. I hope there will be a page > at www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/> that will list all our > trademarks. That will become the official list and the official notice. > > > > What I suggest is the following two sentences at the bottom of our web > pages, in small print: > > > > Copyright (C) 2009 Apache Software Foundation. Licensed under Apache > License > 2.0 (see www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/> ). > > Apache and the Apache feather logo are trademarks of Apache Software > Foundation. > > > > I don't consider that much of a burden. While those notices are not legally > required, there are certain legal advantages to our including those notices > (particularly a copyright notice!) in small print almost everywhere. > > > > If you prefer to replace that with a "Terms of Use" link, that's also > effective, although I don't believe it offers the same legal advantages as > explicit copyright notices on the pages themselves. But hey, we're not > going > to sue anyone anyway, so perhaps I'm being over-protective? Or you > over-burdened? :-) > > > > All other notices would be entirely optional to the project, such as > acknowledgement of Sun's "Java" trademark, or notice of the project's own > trademarks. > > > > /Larry > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Donald Woods [mailto:[email protected]] > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:12 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Cc: [email protected]; 'ASF PRC Team' > > > Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > > > > > > For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual > > > trademarks? If you look at other websites such as: > > > java.net > > > code.google.com > > > sourceforge.net > > > www.sun.com > > > www.ibm.com > > > www.hp.com > > > they don't list trademarks on their main website pages. Each have a > > > "Terms of Use" link at the bottom, which leads to a Legal page that > > > either contains trademark statements or links to a subpage which lists > > > the trademarks - > > > http://java.net/terms.csp - Section 5c > > > http://code.google.com/tos.html - Section 4 > > > http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitelegal/wiki/Terms%20of%20Use - > > > Section 6 > > > http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/ > > > http://www.ibm.com/legal/copytrade.shtml > > > http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/termsofuse.html > > > > > > Shouldn't we create a similar "Terms of Use" page (covering License, > > > Trademark, Privacy, ...) for all ASF projects to link to in the footer > > > of our web and wiki pages? > > > > > > > > > -Donald > > > > > > > > > Lawrence Rosen wrote: > > > > Hi Craig, > > > > > > > > I took your complaint to be about the complexities of trademark law, > not > > > > about me. :-) I'm merely today's messenger with a confusing message. > > > > > > > > Here's an example that you may find useful, for a dessert website: > > > > > > > > ************** > > > > > > > > Welcome to the Jello Brand gelatin recipe cookbook, brought to you by > > > the > > > > Kraft Foods Company. > > > > > > > > Select among the following: > > > > * Flavors of Jello gelatin > > > > * Jello and Fruit: The Perfect Combination > > > > * Whipped Jello for a Romantic Evening Soiree > > > > * Feeding a large family with Jello > > > > * Textbook on the chemistry of Jello and other brands of gelatin > > > > > > > > *************** > > > > > > > > Notice that I slipped casually from strong trademark ("Jello brand > > > gelatin") > > > > to adjective ("Jello gelatin") to noun (just "Jello"), which is > > > unavoidable > > > > in casual speech, and perfectly legal. Trademark law fortunately > doesn't > > > > require that we all take a refresher course in English grammar or > > > > continually utter certain magic words! > > > > > > > > Here's what I would expect in terms of branding Apache OpenJPA: > > > > > > > > 1. The OpenJPA website should start with a specific feather logo that > > > > identifies it as a website of the Apache Software Foundation. This logo > > > > should include the words "Apache Software Foundation" and a pointer to > > > our > > > > main website homepage, www.apache.org. In fact, if you click on that > > > logo > > > > you should go to the ASF homepage. > > > > > > > > 2. Somewhere prominent, the banner on the first page of the OpenJPA > > > website > > > > should identify the "Apache (TM) OpenJPA Project". That "TM" can be > > > fairly > > > > small, but not invisible. Then the body of the page can use the terms > > > > "OpenJPA project" or "OpenJPA team" or even "committers to OpenJPA" > when > > > you > > > > mean your ASF project. > > > > > > > > 3. Then I expect the first prominent reference to the output of the > > > OpenJPA > > > > project to say that you produce and distribute "Apache OpenJPA (TM) > > > software > > > > that implements Sun's Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the > > > > transparent persistence of Java objects" (or whatever is appropriate > and > > > > true). Again, the "TM" can be fairly small, but not invisible; if you > > > don't > > > > want to bother claiming a trademark on "OpenJPA", simply leave off that > > > TM. > > > > > > > > 4. From then on, when referring to the software, you can say things > > > like: > > > > * Unit tests for OpenJPA > > > > * Downloading OpenJPA software > > > > * OpenJPA is distributed under Apache License 2.0 > > > > * How is OpenJPA implemented? > > > > * Apache OpenJPA integrates with Apache Tomcat. > > > > * The sixth iteration of OpenJPA is complete! > > > > > > > > ...and lots of other casual uses that engineers should be able to utter > > > with > > > > ease and complete freedom. > > > > > > > > 5. At the bottom, in small but not invisible letters, include all the > > > > appropriate copyright and trademark and licensing notices to assert > that > > > ASF > > > > is the owner of whatever intellectual property we claim. To be polite, > > > you > > > > can identify that "Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems (or > Oracle)." > > > > > > > > /Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:46 AM > > > >> To: [email protected] > > > >> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; [email protected] > > > >> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > > > >> > > > >> Hi Larry, > > > >> > > > >> On May 18, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Craig Russell complained: > > > >> First, let me be clear. I'm not complaining. I'm trying to understand > > > >> just what we need to do in our public face to be compliant with an > > > >> Apache policy that allows Apache to promote and enforce our marks. > > > >> > > > >> My questions really are just questions. They are not rhetorical or > > > >> argumentative. Please don't read any belligerence into the questions. > > > >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most > > > >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This > > > >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once > > > >>>> lawyers > > > >>>> get hold of it. > > > >>> I'm aware of the pain that causes, and I don't want to turn Apache > > > >>> web pages > > > >>> into legalese. > > > >>> > > > >>> The first major use of a trademark on a web page ought to be, in > > > >>> some way, a > > > >>> combination of the trademark as an adjective modifying the > > > >>> "official" noun. > > > >> The trouble for OpenJPA is that there's no "official" noun. "Software" > > > >> is certainly an appropriate noun, as are "program", "library", > > > >> "package", and "implementation". So should we choose for each project > > > >> an official noun and be consistent with its "first use" on each web > > > >> page? > > > >>> That is so you can educate your readers about your trademark and your > > > >>> product. But it needn't be in sentence form, nor even contain words > > > >>> in their > > > >>> normal English usages or sequence. There are lots of creative ways to > > > >>> introduce trademarks to the public. > > > >>> > > > >>> So I totally approve of your "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of > > > >>> Sun's > > > >>> Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent > > > >>> persistence of > > > >>> Java objects." > > > >> This confuses me. The use of OpenJPA here seems like a noun. > > > >>> > > > >>> You needn't say "OpenJPA software" since you said "OpenJPA > > > >>> implementation". > > > >> Not exactly. It doesn't say "OpenJPA implementation is Apache's > > > >> implementation". It would actually sound better to me to say "OpenJPA > > > >> software is Apache's implementation." > > > >> > > > >> So if it's not a noun, it would never be ok to say "OpenJPA is > > > >> <something>". It would have to be "OpenJPA Software is <something>." > > > >>> They sort of mean the same thing, I think. I'd want you to be more > > > >>> precise > > > >>> if I intended to file a trademark registration with the USPTO, but > > > >>> for a > > > >>> common law trademark, I think that works just fine. Maybe I'd ask > that > > > >>> somewhere you say "click here to download Apache OpenJPA software." > > > >> That's easy to do once we understand the rules. > > > >> > > > >>> But otherwise, don't change that website. > > > >>> > > > >>> What I objected to in my previous email was the first sentence on > your > > > >>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html page, "OpenJPA's unit > > > >>> tests are > > > >>> written using JUnit." That sentence doesn't give anyone a clue what > > > >>> noun the > > > >>> adjective OpenJPA modifies. Nor have I ever seen an apostrophe-s on > an > > > >>> English adjective. :-) > > > >> Right, back to our noun versus adjective. The sentence doesn't make > > > >> sense with OpenJPA as an adjective. As an adjective, it could be > > > >> "OpenJPA unit tests", since part of the OpenJPA implementation > > > >> consists of unit tests. But OpenJPA is not just unit tests. It's also > > > >> a functional piece of software. > > > >> > > > >> But our official documentation is full of "OpenJPA as noun" and not > > > >> "OpenJPA as adjective". So I'm really struggling with whether it's > > > >> just the "first use" on a page that needs to use OpenJPA Software or > > > >> not. > > > >>> > > > >>> /Larry (with my English teacher hat on that I dug out of the very > > > >>> back of my > > > >>> closet) > > > >>> > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > > > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:10 PM > > > >>>> To: [email protected] > > > >>>> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; [email protected] > > > >>>> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Hi Larry, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On May 18, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> 3. Trademarks should be used as adjectives, not nouns. So the > > > >>>>> following > > > >>>>> sentence is incorrect trademark usage: "OpenJPA's unit tests are > > > >>>>> written > > > >>>>> using JUnit." Consider rewriting as "Unit tests for Apache OpenJPA > > > >>>>> persistence project software are written using the JUnit testing > > > >>>>> framework." > > > >>>>> Always assume that customers have to be taught to associate the > > > >>>>> trademark > > > >>>>> with the noun in modifies. Once they've done that in their minds, > > > >>>>> then you > > > >>>>> have a very valuable trademark. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> /Larry > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most > > > >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This > > > >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once > > > >>>> lawyers > > > >>>> get hold of it. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Where we say "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java > > > >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence > > > >>>> of > > > >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard > > > >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA." we would have to say, > > > >>>> instead, "OpenJPA software is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java > > > >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence > > > >>>> of > > > >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard > > > >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA software." > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Did I get this right? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thanks, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Craig > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > > > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 8:49 AM > > > >>>>>> To: ASF PRC Team > > > >>>>>> Cc: [email protected] > > > >>>>>> Subject: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Hi PRC, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> We've finished updating the OpenJPA web site master pages to > > > >>>>>> include > > > >>>>>> Apache trademarks in an obvious but not obtrusive way. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html is an example. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Please let us know if this is in accordance with the current > > > >>>>>> trademark > > > >>>>>> notice policy. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Thanks, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Craig > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Craig L Russell > > > >>>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo > > > >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:[email protected] > > > >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> Craig L Russell > > > >>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo > > > >>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:[email protected] > > > >>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > > > >>> > > > >> Craig L Russell > > > >> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo > > > >> 408 276-5638 mailto:[email protected] > > > >> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
