On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Tim Ellison <t.p.elli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/09/16 11:36, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t.p.elli...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
> >>> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
> >>>
> >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
> >> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
> >>>
> >>> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two
> to
> >>> let others comment.
> >>
> >> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
> >>
> >> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
> >> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
> >>
> >> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
> >> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under the
> >> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
> >> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website then
> >> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
> >>
> >> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
> >> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
> >> the terms of that new location explicit.
> >>
> >> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously edit
> >> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise adding
> >> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
> >>
> >> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
> >> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Tim
> >>
> >
> > Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me Google
> > doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and
> modify.
> > The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to
> approve
> > the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for
> the
> > login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)
> >
> > The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point
> to
> > the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer
> makes
> > a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.
> >
> > I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
> > improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all
> discussions
> > happening on mailing lists -
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.
> action?pageId=65870673
> >
> > There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu, and
> > others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
> > every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
> > fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
> > would very much prefer).
>
> I'm no apologist for ASF infrastructure, which tends to be a lowest
> common denominator.  There is always lots of discussion on the infra
> lists about moving things on.
>
> My point is that putting a link on this list to material hosted
> elsewhere does not make it a contribution.  I am simply doing my mentor
> duty to ensure people are aware of that and (a) mark things as
> contributions where they are so, and (b) don't take things from
> elsewhere without checking the terms first.
>
> Of course, I'm not suggesting anything bad has occurred here.
>
> If other PMCs have less focus on this, that's for them to consider, but
> I have direct personal experience of an Apache project being part of a
> very expensive court case over its contributions so I am hyper-sensitive
> to it.
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>

Apologies for my response. I see your point of view and concur. Would it
suffice to add an ASF legal footer to the Google doc? The Google doc lives
as long as we are hashing out the design, once implemented the Wiki would
be the permanent home and the Google doc ceases to exist.

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