On 21/09/16 13:13, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Tim Ellison <t.p.elli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 21/09/16 11:36, Suneel Marthi wrote:
>>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t.p.elli...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
>>>>> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
>>>>>
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
>>>> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>
>>>>> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two
>> to
>>>>> let others comment.
>>>>
>>>> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
>>>>
>>>> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
>>>> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
>>>>
>>>> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
>>>> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under the
>>>> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
>>>> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website then
>>>> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
>>>> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
>>>> the terms of that new location explicit.
>>>>
>>>> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously edit
>>>> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise adding
>>>> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
>>>>
>>>> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
>>>> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>
>>> Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me Google
>>> doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and
>> modify.
>>> The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to
>> approve
>>> the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for
>> the
>>> login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)
>>>
>>> The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point
>> to
>>> the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer
>> makes
>>> a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.
>>>
>>> I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
>>> improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all
>> discussions
>>> happening on mailing lists -
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.
>> action?pageId=65870673
>>>
>>> There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu, and
>>> others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
>>> every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
>>> fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
>>> would very much prefer).
>>
>> I'm no apologist for ASF infrastructure, which tends to be a lowest
>> common denominator.  There is always lots of discussion on the infra
>> lists about moving things on.
>>
>> My point is that putting a link on this list to material hosted
>> elsewhere does not make it a contribution.  I am simply doing my mentor
>> duty to ensure people are aware of that and (a) mark things as
>> contributions where they are so, and (b) don't take things from
>> elsewhere without checking the terms first.
>>
>> Of course, I'm not suggesting anything bad has occurred here.
>>
>> If other PMCs have less focus on this, that's for them to consider, but
>> I have direct personal experience of an Apache project being part of a
>> very expensive court case over its contributions so I am hyper-sensitive
>> to it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim
>>
> 
> Apologies for my response. I see your point of view and concur. Would it
> suffice to add an ASF legal footer to the Google doc? The Google doc lives
> as long as we are hashing out the design, once implemented the Wiki would
> be the permanent home and the Google doc ceases to exist.

Yes to all.  I'll let Darin add it as he wrote the doc.

I didn't mean this to be a big deal :-( and as this is all material that
is on the list anyway it's a poor example.

Regards,
Tim

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