Don Brown wrote:
How Struts adds committers isn't "fair"
I don't think fairness is really the issue. I guess when you talk about
that, you are meaning to imply that anybody who is disagreeing about
certain things is a whiner.
Frank Z., quite diplomatically, used the term "suboptimal". Of course,
that was a euphemism if there ever was one. The record of this Struts
project in moving things forward is utterly dismal. (Obviously, I don't
count the step of bringing in a competing codebase developed outside ASF
and relabeling it as "Apache Struts" as forward progress in this context.)
Rather than fairness, I think the appropriate thing to concentrate on is
effectiveness. The approach you've taken to running the project over the
last several years simply has not been effective.
Given the dismal results, that you have to answer some pointed questions
about your project management practices is really to be expected you
know, Anything else would IMO be abnormal.
- code quality, community
involvement, trust, and yes, personal taste are all factors. The PMC
members are the gate keepers, and being human, they show favoritism,
bias, and sometimes poor judgment.
Well, in other words, people, being human, make mistakes. However,
*responsible* people take responsibility for their mistaskes. And they
try to learn from it and do better next time.
> You may not like it, but that's the
way it is.
Don, I don't think you guys are going to really get anywhere with this
approach. I really don't.
Great. Can we move on now?
I doubt it. I think you're going to have to engage in the discussion.
Well, you might succeed in bullying people into shutting up in this
instance. It has worked before. But the basic issues will just keep
coming back. Eventually, you'll have to engage in the discussion. So I
would say that, since you have to bite the bullet eventually, you might
as well do it now and get the benefits sooner rather than later.
Struts isn't some damn social club, where we sit around and gossip about
the neighbors.
Well, that it's not some damn social club is why a legitimate discussion
shouldn't be shut down just because it causes discomfort or even
embarassment to some people.
Struts is about building great web frameworks, however,
I feel we have strayed from this path and lost our focus. If we,
committers and contributors alike, spent half the time committing code
and contributing patches as we do bickering, complaining, and "offering
our opinions", we'd be on Struts 4 by now! Let's stop this nonsense,
and get back to work!
Do you have too much free time on your hands? Great, there is much to
be done:
Don, this basic idea that you can tell people "Shut up and get back to
work"... this is not an approach that I think is going to work very
well. Even in a company setting, where it is more of a valid approach,
since people are getting paid after all, sometimes there has to be an
airing of the issues.
But in this setting, where you can't threaten to fire somebody, hence
causing them and their family significant economic distress, the "shut
up and get back to work" approach is surely doomed to failure.
As a guy who is also admin on a fairly well known open source project,
and has grappled with the issues, I would suggest (strongly) that you
find some other way of motivating people to do some heavy lifting.
Because the approach embodied by this last note of yours is not going to
work.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
- Struts Action 1: We finally got the build working and hav"e built a
test build. I haven't heard a single comment from anyone who has
downloaded it and given it a shot. If you want a stable Struts Action 1
release and more to come, get off your butt and help out!
- Struts Action 2: With most of the IP code out of the way, we've
started some great discussions on features to include in the next
release. While this is important, we also need to get some sort of
release out by JavaOne. We need people polishing up the code, updating
wiki docs, testing examples, writing migration guides, and fixing bugs.
- Tiles: For such a popular framework, it is a shame how few people
contribute (only one active maintainer (!)). Greg is working on a
standalone version of Tiles that would support Struts, Spring MVC, or
anyone else. If you use Tiles, jump in and help Greg with the
refactoring. We definitely will be looking for committers when this
moves to Jakarta.
- Struts Shale (yes it is an equal Struts project, get over it): There
still hasn't been a GA release of Shale that I know of. We need people
writing docs, fixing bugs, and providing key feedback to help polish
this product.
My personal thanks David Evens for helping out with JIRA, Wendy Smoak
her hard work for the Maven 2 migration, Ted Husted for the Mailreader
migration tutorial and training materials, Toby Jee for keeping up with
bug fixes and working on the ww migration, Patrick Lightbody for the SAF
2 Maven 2 work, Phil Zoio for writing Strecks....these are people who
stepped up to the plate and put their code where their mouth is. Let's
grow this list!
Don
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