On Tuesday 19 October 2010 03:47:29 Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Florent Daigniere <
> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't want to go on the specifics of GWT but I'd like to make the point
> > that it's not a
> > new framework that we need, it's designers...
> >
> 
> Its both, and if we can't find designers, then a framework that makes life
> as easy as possible for non-designers to create something decent is a good
> fallback option.  GWT meets those criteria because it offers relatively
> high-level primitives, whereas with Wicket you're still hacking XHTML.

I am skeptical that the markup language is the basic problem here. Certainly it 
is possible to build good designs with CSS and HTML - once you have decided 
what they should look like.
> 
> I've seen people making ugly and non-accessible web interfaces with ALL the
> > major
> > frameworks out there. IMHO the current problem is not a framework problem.
> 
> Certainly not *just* a framework problem.  Its a design that has grown
> organically from the back-end forward, rather than from the users backward.
>  It basically wasn't designed at all.

Exactly the point me and nextgens are making: We need a design, then we can 
implement it with whatever tools seem most appropriate.
> 
> In any software project specification involving a GUI, there's a phase where
> > people specify
> > WHAT they want to see on the interface and WHERE it should be. It's usually
> > done
> > with mockups all the parties involved comment on. This is what we should
> > do/agree
> > on first. It doesn't require a framework or anything. People contributing
> > to it
> > can do so the way they feel like (writing text, sending pictures, ...).
> > THEN, it's up to the developpers to chose the appropriate tool to do the
> > job.
> 
> I agree that the priority for now is to get some mockups, and the choice of
> framework is a parallel conversation.  We don't need to wait for us to
> select a framework (or not) to get some conversation going around mockups.
>  That being said, I don't think we need to wait for the mockups to discuss
> frameworks either, they are parallel conversations.
> 
> > I do agree that the current web-framework we use has its limitations... but
> > I don't
> > think that switching to something else would be worth it. It would be a
> > massive job
> > and I think that the development time would be better invested elsewhere.
> 
> It has to happen sooner or later, and I think the UI needs a ground-up
> rewrite regardless of whether we switch frameworks now or later, so it seems
> like if we are going to switch frameworks, its best to to both together.

Depends who does the work I guess.
> 
> > I am convinced that whichever UI we agree on, it can be implemented
> > regardless of the framework
> > ... and that choosing a framework is up to the guy implementing it!
> 
> I mostly agree, if someone came to us and credibly said that they would
> redesign our UI, but they had to use Wicket/Play/GWT/or any other vaguely
> reasonable choice, I think it would be hard to argue against letting them do
> it.
> 
> If I was that person I'd pick GWT, but I'm not - that is just the option
> that I think would make life easiest for them.

Dieppe, any input?

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