On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:50 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected] > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM, [email protected] > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( > [email protected] > > > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Some notes about the proposal: > > > > > > > > - I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page > > > > breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More > > > applications) > > > > from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a particular > type > > > in > > > > the near vicinity where the elements are displayed. > > > > > > What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that > > > wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most > important > > > one. > > > > > > > As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are represented with icons, > > while we provide text only for user generated entities > > (Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”. > > But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”, “Add”, > “More Actions..” which are all well known actions... > > Is that a new rule you’d like to have? > > If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at once > instead of doing an exception just for the Add button, don’t you think so? > So yes, is not something existing, it was more of a premise I based my design when I did iterations (in order to assure consistency). For example, one of the iterations looks like this http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIterations/11.2M.png (where even Edit and More actions are replaced with only icons) ... but again these are design ideas, iterations and proposals. > > > > I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible) for > > > now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various > variations as > > > you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more > feedback and > > > have more time to gather it. > > > > > > > I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIterations/12.1.png > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIterations/12.2.png > > but I prefer the initial proposal (with white) since I think the contrast > > is better and also we keep consistency between elements. > > I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw > attention to it which is not the case for the other elements. That said, > using a “+” without text would be a consistency issue since it’s the only > one like this... > > Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to move > forward so if others are ok to use just a “+” with the same color as the > other menus, then I’m fine (even though I don’t like it). BTW I hope it’s > not too small and can be clicked on a mobile ;) > Actually I would need to make a proposal also for the mobile version, since there things are a bit messed up (because of the Search change) and we might need to provide a custom order. Thanks, Caty > Thanks > -Vincent > > > > > - Although I know there will be some initial findability issues for > the > > > > 'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have problems > > > finding > > > > it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing an > > > > Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn > > > XWiki, I > > > > don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for 'Add' and > I > > > > would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other navbar > > > > elements direction. > > > > > > > > - The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO > 'Search' > > > > should look integrated in the .navbar. > > > > > > > > - I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the 'Add > - > > > > Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are part of the > Colibri > > > > skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug on them > that > > > > made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or > something. > > > Also > > > > I don't think we should provide buttons for all the functionality we > can > > > > think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer > having > > > > buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the try > of > > > > keeping it minimal and simple). > > > > > > > > - We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and > ideas. The > > > > only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the > button > > > back > > > > top. > > > > > > Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right > now or > > > we won’t progress. > > > > > > The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the > removal > > > of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go to…” > for > > > navigation. > > > > > > > I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167 > > > > Thanks, > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO. > > > > > > Thanks > > > -Vincent > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote: > > > > > > > > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a > > > "holistic"/global > > > > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the > "Add" > > > > > button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright > shiny > > > > > beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall > > > > > disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search" element, > > > since > > > > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input (bright > > > white on > > > > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on dark > > > > > background). > > > > > > > > > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first > element > > > in > > > > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be > > > > > disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the > > > expand > > > > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you > expand > > > it, > > > > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that. > > > > > - As an alternative, if we really are against > > > > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just > present > > > the > > > > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the > darker > > > input > > > > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high > > > contrasts. > > > > > > > > > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if > we > > > really > > > > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make the > + > > > sign > > > > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we do, > we > > > > > should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might > > > have a > > > > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that > direction. > > > > > > > > > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) > version > > > and > > > > > long term view that we also need to take into account and, at > least to > > > me, > > > > > that looks really slick. > > > > > > > > > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo > skin, > > > with > > > > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, minimalistic > and > > > to > > > > > the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of > the > > > UI, > > > > > don`t u think? > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also > removing > > > the > > > > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go with the *all too > > > > > obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the "cog" icon with 0 > > > > > problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research > and > > > > > impact studies for that :) > > > > > > > > > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the following > > > statement: > > > > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a label > that > > > > > displays the entity's name". > > > > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc. > > > > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki, > > > space, > > > > > page, user. > > > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I've created this proposal > > > > > > > > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation > > > > > > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is > based on > > > > > > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's > conclusions, > > > you > > > > > > can see it's iterations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIterations > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > actually one thing we could try is this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for > page-related > > > > > > > actions:* > > > > > > > - "Add child page" > > > > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis) > > > > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:* > > > > > > > - "Create page" (TBD) > > > > > > > - "Create space" > > > > > > > - "Create wiki" > > > > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be > presented > > > > > > with > > > > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as > available > > > > > > > templates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent > > > actions > > > > > in > > > > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the > right > > > place > > > > > on > > > > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is > easy to > > > find > > > > > > > where it is right now, why move it?). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > ᐧ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru ( > [email protected] > > > > > (mailto: > > > > > > > > [email protected])) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On that note: > > > > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all > this > > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button > *only > > > the > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that > this > > > is > > > > > one > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know > how to > > > > > > easily > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x > > > time" > > > > > and > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no > saddle, > > > or > > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle > of > > > the > > > > > > page) > > > > > > > > once > > > > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the > > > middle of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > page > > > > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page > > > related > > > > > > > > actions, > > > > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to > > > add a > > > > > > page > > > > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need > to > > > ask > > > > > the > > > > > > > > user to: > > > > > > > > - add a page > > > > > > > > - delete a page > > > > > > > > - move a page > > > > > > > > - create a space > > > > > > > > - etc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > -Vincent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/ > > > > > > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, [email protected] > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie > Delhumeau ( > > > > > > > > > > [email protected](mailto:[email protected])) > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the > current > > > > > page, > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives > the > > > > > > > > impression of > > > > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not > manage to > > > > > find > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > herself). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only > > > concern > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > actions > > > > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new > page > > > > > should > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar > completely > > > and > > > > > move > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the > > > page. > > > > > > > > Because if > > > > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t > be > > > able > > > > > to > > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more > > > > > > importantly > > > > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or > > > delete > > > > > > page… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using > Confluence > > > and > > > > > see > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > she > > > > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > -Vincent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I > > > like the > > > > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose "create > page" > > > > > before > > > > > > > > "create > > > > > > > > > > > wiki". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal > users, > > > with > > > > > > > the 2 > > > > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making > things > > > > > that > > > > > > > look > > > > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this > > > decision > > > > > > alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
