I know this isn’t the first time we’ve discussed getting clang-based gnustep into Debian. Since Debian 12 just came out, I assume our next opportunity is Debian 13? What prevented us from getting in 12 and what do we need to do to get into 13?
Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 18, 2023, at 08:20, H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> Am 18.10.2023 um 14:43 schrieb Daniel Boyd <[email protected]>: >> >> The problem with a desktop environment metapackage is that gnustep is not a >> desktop environment. Window Maker *uses* gnustep, but it is not gnustep >> proper. In the same way that xfce uses gtk+. > > Yes, that is why I changed my mind to propose > > - gnustep: is a GUI development toolkit like gtk or qt > it is a metapackage to pull in > gnustep-base > gnustep-hui > gnustep-gcc > gnustep-clang > etc. > - gap: a set of applications using the gnustep toolkit - one Debian > package for each one > - gsde: is a desktop environment using (i.e. making the package > dependent on) gnustep like xfce is using gtk+. > > Potentially it is possible to split then "gnustep" package into a runtime > (meta) package that just loads compiled shared libraries and a "gnustep-dev" > package that loads all the header files. And Debian source code packages... > Then, "gsde" would only have to depend on "gnustep" and not on "gnustep-dev". > >> >> I think you need to strike a balance somehow. On one hand, we don’t want to >> make it hard to discover gnustep apps. But on the other hand, I think it’s >> important that we don’t add to the confusion about what gnustep actually >> is—a framework upon which apps are built. Not the apps themselves. > > So IMHO there is no problem at all with this and no confusion, as long as > "gnustep" and "gsde" and "gap" are separated. In mind and in package names. > > My proposal would be to just start to work instead of debating what the > "best" compromise is. It is not difficult or even challenging and then > improve the structure after seeing how it works in practise and where the > issues are. It is not a big deal to rename packages, modify package > dependencies, descriptions and contents, as long as the debian package > version numbers are correctly incremented. > > I haven't followed all discussions but if there is someone who sets up a > private debian repository for all gnustep related packages and maintains it, > everyone could contribute. And it just needs an additional entry in > /etc/apt/sources.list or a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d > > -- hns > >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 00:32, H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Well, on second thought it is a matter of definition. >>> >>> There could be: >>> gsde - as the GNUstep based desktop (equivalent to xfce4 for example) >>> gnustep - as the full and complete development system (equivalent to >>> Xcode) >>> gap - the GNUstep applications >>> >>> >>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 07:11 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 00:15 schrieb Daniel Boyd <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>> Yeah you're right -- that was oversimplifying. >>>>> >>>>> I think you need several metapackages >>>>> >>>>> metapackages for running gnustep apps >>>>> gnustep -- synonym for gnustep-clang (at least I think that should be the >>>>> default) >>>> >>>> No, if you apt install lxde or xfce4 or mate or ... it is simply a >>>> metapackage not for running apps but a full preconfigured desktop >>>> including some default setup and apps like Terminal, web browser. That is >>>> the best user experience. >>>> >>>> So it should be a package that installs gnustep desktop eonvironment. I.e. >>>> base, gui, gap apps, etc. which can be grouped in other metapackages (e.g. >>>> gnustep-core, gnustep-gap) >>>> >>>> And then there should be gnustep-dev for being able to develop packages. >>>> Which will be best developer experience. >>>> >>>>> gnustep-gcc >>>>> gnustep-clang >>>>> >>>>> metapackages for developing gnustep apps >>>>> gnustep-dev (installs gnustep-clang-dev) >>>>> gnustep-gcc-dev >>>>> gnustep-clang-dev >>>>> >>>>> And then that way if you're developing an app that requires libobjc2, you >>>>> can just add gnustep-clang as a dependency. (I'm not sure gcc/clang is >>>>> the best approach. objc1/objc2 might be better...? Regardless, I think >>>>> you name it whatever would be most obvious to someone new to the project.) >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 17, 2023, at 4:39 PM, Riccardo Mottola >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Daniel Boyd wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Project goal should be for the instructions to get a working gnustep >>>>>>> environment (in Debian) to be as simple as: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sudo apt install gnustep >>>>>> >>>>>> that's oversimplifying, but something along a couple of virtual packages >>>>>> like "gnustep core" "gnustep development" "gnustep games" "gnustep net >>>>>> apps" (if we had more than gnumail...)could do. >>>>>> A "gnustep full" is a bit overkill, but for whom wants it would be also >>>>>> easy to do. I don't know how xfce or gnome do things nowadays, because I >>>>>> always go the "cherry-pick" route there too. >>>> >>>> They do it all the overkill way :) >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> These would just pull in the proper selection of packages which should >>>>>> be separately available. Not even that hard, even on debian. Debian has >>>>>> most stuff already, except some long-standing missing things. >>>>>> >>>>>> With our private repo, even easier then. A thing to remember would be to >>>>>> make them incompatible with the offical debian packages or something >>>>>> similar, do be sure that they don't get mixed up. >>>> >>>> It is easy to mix public and private repos. >>>> >>>> Just my 2cts >>>> >>>> -- hns >>>> >>> >
