Downside for the private repo route is you have to pay for the hosting infrastructure. And then you’ll need packages for a bunch versions of Debian and Ubuntu that someone would need to curate.
Honest question—would it be easier to do a flatpak? Also, is there any GNU infrastructure we could leverage to host an apt repo? Since Debian 13 is a long ways off, I do think we might want to consider the private repo or flatpak route, but obviously neither of those is a trivial project. I’m happy to help with a project like that—flatpak or private repo—but I’ve never done anything like that, so would need some guidance/help. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 18, 2023, at 08:52, H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected]> wrote: > > Well, I have no idea how Debian upstreaming works - I just know how a > private (or self-published) repository can work (and that it is easier to > handle). > > -- hns > >> Am 18.10.2023 um 15:35 schrieb Daniel Boyd <[email protected]>: >> >> I know this isn’t the first time we’ve discussed getting clang-based gnustep >> into Debian. Since Debian 12 just came out, I assume our next opportunity is >> Debian 13? What prevented us from getting in 12 and what do we need to do to >> get into 13? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 08:20, H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 14:43 schrieb Daniel Boyd <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>> The problem with a desktop environment metapackage is that gnustep is not >>>> a desktop environment. Window Maker *uses* gnustep, but it is not gnustep >>>> proper. In the same way that xfce uses gtk+. >>> >>> Yes, that is why I changed my mind to propose >>> >>> - gnustep: is a GUI development toolkit like gtk or qt >>> it is a metapackage to pull in >>> gnustep-base >>> gnustep-hui >>> gnustep-gcc >>> gnustep-clang >>> etc. >>> - gap: a set of applications using the gnustep toolkit - one Debian >>> package for each one >>> - gsde: is a desktop environment using (i.e. making the package >>> dependent on) gnustep like xfce is using gtk+. >>> >>> Potentially it is possible to split then "gnustep" package into a runtime >>> (meta) package that just loads compiled shared libraries and a >>> "gnustep-dev" package that loads all the header files. And Debian source >>> code packages... Then, "gsde" would only have to depend on "gnustep" and >>> not on "gnustep-dev". >>> >>>> >>>> I think you need to strike a balance somehow. On one hand, we don’t want >>>> to make it hard to discover gnustep apps. But on the other hand, I think >>>> it’s important that we don’t add to the confusion about what gnustep >>>> actually is—a framework upon which apps are built. Not the apps themselves. >>> >>> So IMHO there is no problem at all with this and no confusion, as long as >>> "gnustep" and "gsde" and "gap" are separated. In mind and in package names. >>> >>> My proposal would be to just start to work instead of debating what the >>> "best" compromise is. It is not difficult or even challenging and then >>> improve the structure after seeing how it works in practise and where the >>> issues are. It is not a big deal to rename packages, modify package >>> dependencies, descriptions and contents, as long as the debian package >>> version numbers are correctly incremented. >>> >>> I haven't followed all discussions but if there is someone who sets up a >>> private debian repository for all gnustep related packages and maintains >>> it, everyone could contribute. And it just needs an additional entry in >>> /etc/apt/sources.list or a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d >>> >>> -- hns >>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 00:32, H. Nikolaus Schaller <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, on second thought it is a matter of definition. >>>>> >>>>> There could be: >>>>> gsde - as the GNUstep based desktop (equivalent to xfce4 for example) >>>>> gnustep - as the full and complete development system (equivalent to >>>>> Xcode) >>>>> gap - the GNUstep applications >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 07:11 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller >>>>>>> <[email protected]>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 00:15 schrieb Daniel Boyd <[email protected]>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah you're right -- that was oversimplifying. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you need several metapackages >>>>>>> >>>>>>> metapackages for running gnustep apps >>>>>>> gnustep -- synonym for gnustep-clang (at least I think that should be >>>>>>> the default) >>>>>> >>>>>> No, if you apt install lxde or xfce4 or mate or ... it is simply a >>>>>> metapackage not for running apps but a full preconfigured desktop >>>>>> including some default setup and apps like Terminal, web browser. That >>>>>> is the best user experience. >>>>>> >>>>>> So it should be a package that installs gnustep desktop eonvironment. >>>>>> I.e. base, gui, gap apps, etc. which can be grouped in other >>>>>> metapackages (e.g. gnustep-core, gnustep-gap) >>>>>> >>>>>> And then there should be gnustep-dev for being able to develop packages. >>>>>> Which will be best developer experience. >>>>>> >>>>>>> gnustep-gcc >>>>>>> gnustep-clang >>>>>>> >>>>>>> metapackages for developing gnustep apps >>>>>>> gnustep-dev (installs gnustep-clang-dev) >>>>>>> gnustep-gcc-dev >>>>>>> gnustep-clang-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And then that way if you're developing an app that requires libobjc2, >>>>>>> you can just add gnustep-clang as a dependency. (I'm not sure gcc/clang >>>>>>> is the best approach. objc1/objc2 might be better...? Regardless, I >>>>>>> think you name it whatever would be most obvious to someone new to the >>>>>>> project.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2023, at 4:39 PM, Riccardo Mottola >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Daniel Boyd wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Project goal should be for the instructions to get a working gnustep >>>>>>>>> environment (in Debian) to be as simple as: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sudo apt install gnustep >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that's oversimplifying, but something along a couple of virtual >>>>>>>> packages >>>>>>>> like "gnustep core" "gnustep development" "gnustep games" "gnustep net >>>>>>>> apps" (if we had more than gnumail...)could do. >>>>>>>> A "gnustep full" is a bit overkill, but for whom wants it would be also >>>>>>>> easy to do. I don't know how xfce or gnome do things nowadays, because >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> always go the "cherry-pick" route there too. >>>>>> >>>>>> They do it all the overkill way :) >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> These would just pull in the proper selection of packages which should >>>>>>>> be separately available. Not even that hard, even on debian. Debian has >>>>>>>> most stuff already, except some long-standing missing things. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With our private repo, even easier then. A thing to remember would be >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make them incompatible with the offical debian packages or something >>>>>>>> similar, do be sure that they don't get mixed up. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is easy to mix public and private repos. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my 2cts >>>>>> >>>>>> -- hns >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >
