Charles, No, it says the data elements containing the postal address are exempt from disclaiming.
I don't care anymore. I just can't understand why I'm being told these two paragraphs are the end-all when they seem to say something completely different from the interpretation by Paul and yourself. I wouldn't expect ICANN to follow its own rules any better than the local Judges I've worked with follow the law so your conversations regarding such interpretation with ICANN I'm sure diverge greatly from the written word. But I can't see those and those have not been brought up in this thread yet. John > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:chuck@;catalyst.tucows.com]On > Behalf Of Charles Daminato > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:11 AM > To: John T. Jarrett > Subject: RE: Changing Admin Info after Refund > > > John, > > The name, postal address (etc) are all under > "data elements" > > Note that Ross has been working largely for the > past 3 years to > try to get some leverage on the interpretation of > that document. > For all intents and purposes, pedantics aside, we > (registrar) are > not allowed to alter that data and subsequently > we pass that down > to you (2.4 of the reseller agreement). > > You may wish to send this letter to Ross, as I'm > sure he'll > explain it better. > > Charles Daminato > TUCOWS Product Manager > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, John T. Jarrett wrote: > > > Hmmm, first off let me define "disclaim" as (1) deny or > > disown, (2) Law, an act of repudiating > another's claim or > > renouncing one's own. (Oxford Concise English > Dictionary, > > 9th ed.) > > > > Per that document I disclaim all rights to exclusive > > ownership or use of the data elements consisting of name > > being registered, the IP of the nameservers, > and the names > > of the nameservers (sections 3.2.1.1 through 3.2.1.3). > > > > Also per that paragraph 3.5, I DO NOT disclaim > rights to the > > 'Registered Name Holder' and that person's name, postal > > address, etc. > > > > In fact the paragraph states the ownership of that data > > transfers to a gaining registrar on transfer. > > > > To me this paragraph says exactly the opposite > of what we > > are being led to believe this paragraph means. In fact > > comparing this to the Registrar Agreement with > Tucows para. > > 2.4, a basic rewording of the ICANN paragraph 3.5, it > > specifically does not mention the data elements which > > contain the person's name and address as fields > I've given > > up my rights to. > > > > I'll note here that you (Tucows) is the > Registrar of record, > > not us (the reseller). So technically YOU own > rights to the > > name and address of the registrant, not me. But > I no longer > > feel my agreement with you prevents my changing > that data no > > matter what feelings are felt where or > precedent has been > > set elsewhere which I don't currently have knowledge of. > > > > Let me be clear: I'm not a lawyer. I am certified in the > > reading and duplication of contracts and law, but am not > > authorized to practice law anywhere or give > legal advice. > > This is just a layman's interpretation with > dictionary in > > hand and is based solely on the paragraphs given and > > paragraphs referenced in those given... > > > > John > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:chuck@;catalyst.tucows.com]On > > > Behalf Of Charles Daminato > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 6:47 AM > > > To: John T. Jarrett > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: Changing Admin Info after Refund > > > > > > > > > Ross mentioned it earlier in the thread: > > > > > > "section 3.5 of your registrar accreditation > agreement" > > > > > > You can get that here: > > > > > > > http://www.icann.org/registrars/ra-agreement-17may01.htm > > > > > > Charles Daminato > > > TUCOWS Product Manager > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, John T. Jarrett wrote: > > > > > > > Consider this a lobby to our supplier! > > > > > > > > Still, tho, Paul said it violated ICANN rules, > > > but I can't > > > > find it and I still haven't been pointed to > any ICANN > > > > document which says what you are saying. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Ross Wm. Rader [mailto:ross@;tucows.com] > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:14 PM > > > > > To: Donny Simonton; 'Charles Daminato'; 'Mark > > > Petersen' > > > > > Cc: 'John T. Jarrett'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: Re: Changing Admin Info after Refund > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Donny - I'm not the one that you need to convince > > > > > - the contract is pretty > > > > > clear in stating that at no point does the > > > > > registrar hold any rights to the > > > > > domain name, nor any elements of the domain name > > > > > record. If it hasn't been > > > > > paid for, then the requirements are also very > > > > > clear that the name shouldn't > > > > > exist (and should therefore be deleted). Do you > > > > > lose? Yup - but that just > > > > > means that those that are concerned about it > > > > > should a) be focusing their > > > > > dev. time on implementing registrar_hold and > > > > > registrar_lock implementations > > > > > that deal with the issue and/or b) lobbying their > > > > > supplier for more > > > > > favorable terms. > > > > > > > > > > -rwr > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Donny Simonton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "'Ross Wm. Rader'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > > "'Charles Daminato'" > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Mark Petersen'" > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Cc: "'John T. Jarrett'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 00:05 Moo! > > > > > Subject: RE: Changing Admin Info after Refund > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ross, if the customer buys a domain for 10 > > > > > years and uses a stolen > > > > > > credit card, and I don't find out about it > > > > > until 20 days after the > > > > > > registration. Since they never paid for the > > > > > registration to begin with > > > > > > in my model which is registrar->customer, I > > > > > paid for the domain the > > > > > > customer did not. In this case I am the owner, > > > > > and we have talked with > > > > > > "certain people" who agree with us on this > > > one. In the > > > > > > registrar->reseller->customer model, that's > > > > > something completely > > > > > > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > Donny > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Ross Wm. Rader [mailto:ross@;tucows.com] > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:14 PM > > > > > > > To: Donny Simonton; 'Charles Daminato'; 'Mark > > > > > Petersen' > > > > > > > Cc: 'John T. Jarrett'; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Changing Admin Info after Refund > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At point in time does the registrar or the > > > > > reseller have any claim of > > > > > > > "ownership" to the domain name. If it hasn't > > > > > been paid, the "right" > > > > > > thing > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > do is delete it. The registrar has no > > > > > superior claims to a domaim...we > > > > > > are > > > > > > > also just "pass-throughs"...section 3.5 of > > > > > your registrar > > > > > > accreditation > > > > > > > agreement is pretty specific about this. > > > > > Besides, you should know > > > > > > better > > > > > > > than to let other registrars set a bad > > > > > example for you. If this was > > > > > > the > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > way to proceed, then we'd all suck as much as > > > > > Network Solutions - and > > > > > > be > > > > > > > charging $35 a year for the privilege. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can't say that I like it much, but the rules > > > > > are there to be played by > > > > > > - > > > > > > > except by those that don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -rwr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Donny Simonton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: "'Charles Daminato'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > > "'Mark Petersen'" > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Cc: "'John T. Jarrett'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 21:29 Moo! > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Changing Admin Info after Refund > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, > > > > > > > > Don't want to make this any worse, but we > > > > > do the same thing at > > > > > > > > directNIC. If a customer charges back on > > > > > us, they did not pay for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > domain, I did. Not only did I pay the > > > > > registration fees, but I paid > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > chargeback fees. So we take the domains > > > > > and put them up for sale. > > > > > > If I > > > > > > > > could I would redirect them to some horse > > > > > porn site, but the owners > > > > > > > > wouldn't let me. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I do understand why register.com and > > > > > godaddy confiscate domains. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Donny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > [mailto:owner-discuss- > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of > > > Charles Daminato > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:47 PM > > > > > > > > > To: Mark Petersen > > > > > > > > > Cc: John T. Jarrett; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Changing Admin Info > after Refund > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Precedence does not make it "right". I > > > > > don't fully understand the > > > > > > > > > legalities of it (Ross would have to > > > > > explain - Ross?), but I > > > > > > > > > believe Register does not take control of > > > > > the domain (i.e. they > > > > > > > > > don't assume ownership and sell to > > > > > soemone else). They simply > > > > > > > > > "hold" it, if it's not paid it stays on > > > > > hold until the day it > > > > > > > > > expires (then it goes up for deletion) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Charles Daminato > > > > > > > > > TUCOWS Product Manager > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Mark Petersen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stand on precedence. Register.Com is > > > > > allowed to seize domains on > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > daily > > > > > > > > > > basis. > > > > > > > > > > The routinely change registrants WHOIS > > > > > information from whatever > > > > > > > > *was* > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > register.com > > > > > > > > > > Unpaid Names Department-R > > > > > > > > > > 575 Eighth Avenue > > > > > > > > > > New York, NY 10018 > > > > > > > > > > US > > > > > > > > > > Phone: 212-798-9200 > > > > > > > > > > Fax..: 212-594-9876 > > > > > > > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they can do it, why shouldn't we > > > be able to? > > > > > > > > > > It's supposed to be a level playing > > > > > field, right? > > > > > > > > > > Good luck, > > > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > Planet Nic http://www.planet-nic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "John T. Jarrett" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:45 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Changing Admin Info > after Refund > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul over in compliance says it is > > > > > against ICANN reg's for > > > > > > > > > > > me to change admin info after a > > > > > customer refunds on the > > > > > > > > > > > domain name registration: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I hate to tell you this but you are > > > > > not allowed to change > > > > > > > > > > > the whois information - ICANN rules. > > > > > It appears as though > > > > > > > > > > > you are trying to take away someone > > > > > else's property." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly, I couldn't care less how it > > > > > looks. I've offered the > > > > > > > > > > > refund codes from the merchant > > > > > account holder LinkPoint > > > > > > > > > > > themselves so there's proof behind > > > > > appearances. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can y'all point me to what he's > > > > > talking to? I can't find it > > > > > > > > > > > in the UDRP or the Reg Agreement. I > > > > > don't mind complying > > > > > > > > > > > with written rules if I can find > > > > > them, but I'd rather not > > > > > > > > > > > let this woman steal three domain > > > > > name registrations if I > > > > > > > > > > > don't have to! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
