Hi all, Member of the mybinder.org operating team here 👋🏻 I am glad that folks think that Binder would be a useful tool to incorporate into Carpentries at some point, and it's absolutely something the team would provide support towards, but I agree that we have to be very careful and intentional on where and how we use Binder.
For instance, I don't think it's actually very good at teaching folk about cloud computing at all! So much is wrapped up in the BinderHub infrastructure that all a user really needs to know is 1) what is GitHub (or BitBucket, and so on), and 2) what documenting software dependencies looks like for their project (such as, requirements.txt). Everything else works "like magic" and is for information only. In my experience, Binder works best in more cerebral teaching settings where it's more about learning the concept (Bayesian stats, for instance) than getting the environment right. Since much of the struggle with a lot of data science/software engineering skills is knowing how to handle your environment and configure tools correctly, I agree the value of attending a Carpentries workshop is leaving with that skill and a working setup. That's my 2 cents anyway and I'd be happy to have further discussion about Binder in Carpentries lessons if folks are interested (though I'd recommend another email thread and/or Slack for that!) Best wishes, *Sarah Gibson (she/her <https://www.mypronouns.org/>)* Open Source Infrastructure Engineer | 2i2c.org sgibson91.github.io | @sgibson91 <https://github.com/sgibson91> | @drsarahlgibson <https://twitter.com/drsarahlgibson> *Alt email: [email protected] <[email protected]>* ----------------------------------------------------------- *While I may be sending this message outside my normal working hours,* *I have no expectations to receive a response outside of yours.* *Sent with Shift <https://tryshift.com/?utm_source=SentWithShift&utm_campaign=Sent+with+Shift+Signature&utm_medium=Email+Signature&utm_content=General+Email+Group>* On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 at 14:41, Guyer, Jonathan E. Dr. via discuss < [email protected]> wrote: > I share Robin’s concern. Giving people tools they can use when they leave > the workshop is really important. > > Having cloud solutions like Binder as a backup is certainly a good idea, > but I think it virtually guarantees that those individuals will leave the > workshop and never use any of the tools again. > > We simply assume the first hour is going to be spent getting people up and > running on their own computers. Of course, this works better in-person with > lots of helpers in the room, ideally with a mix of experience with > different platforms and particularly with whatever idiosyncrasies the local > institution imposes (don’t get me started on the NIST Z: drive!). We offer > office hours and other mechanisms beforehand, but the people who most need > it invariably are the ones who don’t come. > > This isn’t a perfect solution by any means. It takes away time for > instruction and it’s very frustrating for the learners who followed > instructions and get everything working beforehand. There at least used to > be a validation script that would ensure that everything was actually > installed, which could potentially be used as a screening question “if this > passes, show up at 9 am; if it doesn’t, show up at 8". Unfortunately, the > learners targeted for Foundational Computer Skills were the ones who had no > idea how to run the script, which, I think, is why it was deprecated. > > I like Matthias' suggestion of preparing explanations/justifications that > can be handed to sysadmins to alleviate their concerns about installing the > Carpentries tools on a managed system. > > On Jul 8, 2021, at 4:59 AM, Long, Robin <[email protected]> wrote: > > My concern about using cloud systems is that one of the many things The > Carpentries is great at is getting people up and running quickly - and with > the knowledge, they need to go back and start working on their > work/research/analysis. By teaching them in a cloud environment (which may > not be compatible with how their group/organisation works we may be > teaching them some of the skills they need but then sending them back to > fend for themselves in an environment they are not familiar with. > > We save instructors time, but I feel that is moving away from a > learner-centric experience to a one centred on the instructor. This gives > them an even larger barrier to use of skills if we send them back and they > are not only not allowed or able to use cloud, but we have only taught them > Linux CLI and they are now facing Windows. > > Regards, > Robin. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Sichong Peng via discuss <[email protected]> > *Sent:* 08 July 2021 01:52 > *To:* discuss <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [External] Re: [cp-discuss] Re: A lesson on Foundational > Computer Skills > > *This email originated outside the University. Check before clicking links > or attachments.* > To add to the point of admin access, it is also common for folks on > company-issued devices to have limited access. Depending on host institute, > IT often takes a long time to have required software installed, especially > so if they need to approve it first. > > In the past, we've used carpentries maintained binders to teach Python > when locally installing conda was not an option, with varying degrees of > success (firewall issues may occur). > > I've always recommended using binder in carpentries workshops. There are a > few advantages of using cloud-based tools to teach carpentries lessons, IMO: > > 1. It gives learners an opportunity to familiarize themselves with cloud > computing, which is increasingly common and even necessary in today's data > analysis. > > 2. We've never managed to get everyone to complete pre-workshop setup no > matter how many emails organizers send out. This then requires a > considerable amount of time on day 1 to get everyone set up. Using binders > solves this problem > as binder projects can be preconfigured with necessary packages and data > files. > > 3. It provides a unified terminal interface and file system. This saves > instructors time to explain differences among MacOS, Linux, and different > Windows terminal programs. It also makes it easier to teach file system > since everyone will be on a Linux OS. > > And most importantly, it is OS-agnostic, and requires lowest hardware > specs. > > SP > > On Wed, Jul 7, 2021, 5:23 PM Reid, Andrew C.E. via discuss < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > With regard to admin access, I think there's a very valuable broader > point, namely that instructors and learners in many venues might > have differing levels of access to computers, so the suggested one-pager > on engaging with IT support staff or working within access limits seems > obviously high-value. > > For US government employees in particular, this evidently > varies by agency (and probably staff role). At my agency, sufficient > computer access to install and configure software is common among > research staff. > -- A. > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 05:51:27PM -0400, Elizabeth McAulay wrote: > > I think the following topics might be useful to have written down, but > I'd like to also advocate for instructors being willing to narrate and > explain these topics in workshops. The Carpentries tone for me has > emphasized learning and inclusivity, and that means acknowledging learner > needs through interaction during the workshop. I don't think anyone is > suggesting otherwise, but I thought I'd say it specifically so that the > purpose of the lesson, or maybe "pre-lesson," be understood in the larger > picture. > > > > My suggestions for this lesson are: > > 1) It might be good to know what "home directory" means in different > operating systems. > > 2) Common spreadsheet programs > > 3) Common text editor programs > > > > Slightly separate topic, in a recent Community Discussion Call, we > covered that US Government employees will never be given administrator > privileges to their machines. This was a discussion with two US Government > agency employees who had trained to become instructors, so they will be > working to lead workshops inside their agency. I thought a good one-pager > that might explain how machine IT staff could be brought in as helpers and > advocates could be useful. > > -- > Dr. Andrew C. E. Reid > Physical Scientist, Computer Operations Administrator > Center for Theoretical and Computational Materials Science > National Institute of Standards and Technology, Mail Stop 8555 > Gaithersburg MD 20899 USA > [email protected] > > ------------------------------------------ > This list is for the purpose of general discussion about The Carpentries > including community activities, upcoming events, and announcements. Some > other lists you may also be interested in include discuss-hpc, discuss-r, > and our local groups. 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