Well, personally I've never meant to shame anyone over this. Stuff happens.
But the longer it takes to solve a problem, the more likely it is to get worse, and the more anxious I get. For example: since we have two toilets at the space, one being plugged is ok for awhile: telling someone and leaving it till the morning makes sense. Once the second one is plugged, that's more urgent, especially late at night when no alternate facilities are available. Everyone seems to agree that I overreacted, and I am sorry to have annoyed you all. But it was done with a good heart, and with the intention to help deal with the issue - to prevent it from getting worse and recurring. I won't apologize for caring. On May 6, 2013 12:43 PM, "Jay Smith" <[email protected]> wrote: > Personally, I don't have any issues with how the toilet issue was > resolved. Plunger found, toilet fixed, done. > > What I do want to see is a strong stand against the nagging and shaming > bullshit that seems to follow "incidents" like this. Often by a member who > has done nothing to actually resolve the problem itself. It's not excellent > and has driven members out of the organisation. Can we put some > anti-nagging and anti-shaming sentiment to policy, in the hopes that we can > put a stop to or remove the offending members instead? > On 2013-05-06 12:31 PM, "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Use best judgement when you can, but this toilet thing was *way* >> overblown and I had a lot of annoyed people asking me why they were >> involved with it. >> >> If it's something that can't be immediately resolved, pass it to admin >> then drop it. One of us will sort it out. >> >> Ron >> >> On 2013-05-06 11:58, Roswyne wrote: >> > That'll work great as long as the issue can be resolved promptly >> (within an >> > hour or so). >> > >> > The longer it's expected to take, the more important notifying the >> general >> > membership becomes. >> > >> > I.E. plunger will not arrive till the morning, so toilets will be out of >> > service till then. >> > On May 6, 2013 10:51 AM, "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > Yup, that would work! The point is to not involve a whole bunch of >> > > individuals and make a big deal out of something that's not really a >> big >> > > deal. If you can resolve it yourself, get it done. If you can't, >> contact >> > > admin. Done. >> > > >> > > Ron >> > > >> > > On 2013-05-06 10:46, Justin Lacko wrote: >> > > > I think that's getting way too inclusive and tedious... look. >> Example >> > > > problem: >> > > > >> > > > 1. I get to SkSp, oh noes, toilet is clogged and there is no >> plunger~! >> > > > 2. I shut off the valve behind the toilet and check first if anyone >> knows >> > > > how to fix. I determine I need a plunger. >> > > > 3. I email admin@, cc discuss@ to say the toilet is clogged and I >> don't >> > > > have a plunger and wondering if anyone can help? >> > > > 4. Nobody responds/is able to help, so because I have no money I ask >> > > > admin@if I can use donation box money to buy a plunger. They say >> yes. >> > > > I go do >> > > > that. Or, I go buy it myself and skip asking admin@. >> > > > 5. I/Someone fixes the problem and then I email admin@, cc discuss@and >> > > say >> > > > the problem has been fixed. >> > > > >> > > > Boom, done, next! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On 6 May 2013 10:40, Roswyne <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Cool. >> > > > > >> > > > > To avoid duplicate reports from members, it might also be helpful >> (and >> > > > > reassuring) if admin posts something to discuss indicating they >> are >> > > aware >> > > > > of the problem and are actively handling it. >> > > > > >> > > > > Actually, considering that discuss is an opt-in list, perhaps that >> > > should >> > > > > go to announce or members. >> > > > > On May 6, 2013 10:34 AM, "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> For a plunger, contact admin@ first. Waiting till morning isn't >> a big >> > > > >> deal, and the reason it took awhile is because it was late and >> stores >> > > > >> were closed. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> If something is leaking or on fire or going to explode, take >> money >> > > from >> > > > >> the box. If it can wait a few hours or till the morning, please >> > > contact >> > > > >> us. Like Justin said, Ian's pretty good at getting the cheques >> out. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> Ron >> > > > >> >> > > > >> On 2013-05-06 10:24, Roswyne wrote: >> > > > >> > Actually I think that was a factor this time, and was (part >> of) why >> > > it >> > > > >> took >> > > > >> > so long to get a plunger.... >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Not everyone makes what you do, or has a credit card. ;) >> > > > >> > On May 6, 2013 10:21 AM, "Justin Lacko" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > I don't think anyone except admin@ has the authoritah to >> pull >> > > funds >> > > > >> from >> > > > >> > > the donation box until directed to do so. I haven't yet seen >> an >> > > > >> emergency >> > > > >> > > situation where we need "parts" immediately and there was >> nobody >> > > that >> > > > >> could >> > > > >> > > temporarily cover it. SkSp is pretty good with getting >> cheques to >> > > > >> people. >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > On 6 May 2013 10:18, Roswyne <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > >> One thing that could be a factor in resolving an issue is >> money. >> > > If >> > > > >> parts >> > > > >> > >> are required, whoever's on site may not have cash on hand >> (or >> > > > >> > >> transportation) to get them. >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> Is that a "bump to admin" thing, or could the donation bin >> be >> > > used to >> > > > >> > >> cover the cost? (if so, should admin approval be needed?) >> > > > >> > >> On May 6, 2013 9:35 AM, "Ron" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >>> Hey all, >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> If last week's "toilet incident" has told me anything, it's >> > > that we >> > > > >> > >>> don't know how to handle issues properly as a group without >> > > driving >> > > > >> each >> > > > >> > >>> other nuts or shaming each other, so let me propose a more >> > > formal >> > > > >> > >>> process. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> I posted mostly this text to the following wiki page, >> please >> > > edit >> > > > >> if you >> > > > >> > >>> disagree or can think of a better way to handle something: >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Incident_handling >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> Also, I realize this is a little long, but I think it's >> > > important to >> > > > >> > >>> read... >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> == >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> If you notice a problem at the space that needs speedy >> > > resolution >> > > > >> (like >> > > > >> > >>> plugged toilets), you have ownership of the problem until >> you >> > > pass >> > > > >> it on >> > > > >> > >>> to somebody else (don't worry, it's easy!) - here's what >> to do: >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> 1. If you can fix the problem yourself, there's somebody >> around >> > > who >> > > > >> can >> > > > >> > >>> fix it, or you know the "right" person to contact, let >> them know >> > > > >> > >>> directly and they can choose to take ownership (please >> email >> > > admin@when >> > > > >> > >>> it's resolved so we know what's going on). >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> 2. If you can't fix the problem yourself or you don't know >> who >> > > to >> > > > >> ask or >> > > > >> > >>> the 'right' person is unable/unwilling to take ownership, >> and >> > > it's a >> > > > >> > >>> problem that another member might be able to help with, >> email >> > > > >> discuss@. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> If you are on discuss@ and you can't help, please don't >> reply; >> > > only >> > > > >> > >>> reply if you can actually make a difference (we don't need >> extra >> > > > >> > >>> noise/chatter). Replying = taking ownership (though you can >> > > pass it >> > > > >> off >> > > > >> > >>> to admin@ any time). >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> 3. If it's something discuss@ can't resolve (eg, an issue >> with >> > > the >> > > > >> > >>> landlord or a legal issue), or discuss@ doesn't resolve >> it in a >> > > > >> > >>> reasonable amount of time ("reasonable" depends on the >> problem, >> > > > >> > >>> obviously), escalate to admin@. Somebody on admin@ will >> take >> > > > >> ownership >> > > > >> > >>> and make sure it gets done. Once you've done that, please >> drop >> > > it. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> Please don't act on behalf of admin@ if it's something >> > > serious, or >> > > > >> > >>> especially if it's something that threatens our safety >> (either >> > > > >> > >>> physically or as an organization). Escalate to admin@. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> 3a. If it's a network issue, and email is still available, >> email >> > > > >> > >>> netops@. If it's a network issue and email is *not* >> available, >> > > > >> please >> > > > >> > >>> contact Colin Stanners, Mak, or myself. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> 4. Once it's resolved, if admin@ wasn't involved, please >> let >> > > admin@know >> > > > >> > >>> it happened, and how it was fixed. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> The things we *don't* need are: >> > > > >> > >>> - An avalanche of emails and/or text messages to a variety >> of >> > > > >> different >> > > > >> > >>> people >> > > > >> > >>> - Confusion about who owns an issue >> > > > >> > >>> - ie, an abundance of people contacted to help, none of >> whom >> > > know >> > > > >> who >> > > > >> > >>> else is involved or WTF is going on >> > > > >> > >>> - Shaming - either public or private, and either before or >> after >> > > > >> > >>> - Massive overreactions >> > > > >> > >>> - Please don't email individual board members unless >> there's a >> > > very >> > > > >> good >> > > > >> > >>> reason - just email admin@ so we can take care of it as >> > > needed, >> > > > >> that's >> > > > >> > >>> why we're here! >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> ^ All of which happened, for some insane reason, during the >> > > "toilet >> > > > >> > >>> incident". Seriously people, that was not a complicated >> problem, >> > > > >> and it >> > > > >> > >>> was easily resolved. We don't need any of that shit. Just >> > > contact >> > > > >> the >> > > > >> > >>> right people and let the problem work itself out. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> TL;DR: If you notice a problem, you own it. If you think >> it'll >> > > help, >> > > > >> > >>> alert discuss@ - where somebody else can take ownership if >> > > they're >> > > > >> able >> > > > >> > >>> to - or admin@ - where somebody definitely will. Once >> somebody >> > > else >> > > > >> > >>> takes ownership, drop it. Whenever it gets resolved, the >> > > current >> > > > >> owner >> > > > >> > >>> should email admin@ with what happened and how it was >> fixed. >> > > > >> Unless it's >> > > > >> > >>> a plugged toilet, in which case, who the hell cares? Just >> deal >> > > with >> > > > >> it. >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> Hope that clears things up! Edit the wiki page if you >> think you >> > > can >> > > > >> do >> > > > >> > >>> something better! >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> Ron >> > > > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > > > >> > >>> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > >> > >>> Help: >> > > http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > >> > >>> Archive: >> > > > >> https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > > >> > >> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > >> > >> Help: >> > > http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > >> > >> Archive: >> > > https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > >> > > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > >> > > Help: >> > > http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > >> > > Archive: >> > > https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > > > >> > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > >> > Help: >> http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > >> > Archive: >> > > https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > > >> >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > > >> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > >> Help: >> http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > >> Archive: >> https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > > Help: >> http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > > Archive: >> https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > Archive: >> https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss > Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >
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