Hola,
Thank you, Bill, for summarizing the discussion so far, it's very constructive.
To be clear, my personal position is (if you're interested):
- *mentioning* excel *if* it echoes with the audience, to learn how to
minimize it.
Certainly not *teaching* excel--plus, I would personally not be able
nor willing to do that.
Plus, I concur with Titus that it wouldn't be manageable to
add/include/append to the SWC materials any and every other tool that
might be used out there. We want to focus our efforts indeed; for
instance, I can't imagine how instructor training would remain
consistent and manageable, if we don't have a somewhat standard, small
enough curriculum/toolset.
I remember interacting with students during/after a bootcamp, and they
would express how much they were tempted/convinced to "switch to
Python" but, on the short/mid term, they would feel stuck with Matlab
because of {their advisor, lab mates, whatever}. We would discuss
further and they could eventually identify some steps/chunks, or new
tasks, which they could handle in Python, and hook back into
[pipeline!] Matlab "for now". That's what I experienced when I was a
PhD student, I transitioned from Matlab to Python/matplotlib quite
gradually. You have to start somewhere.
>From the pre-bootcamp survey, or from asking people to raise hands
during the bootcamp, you know what participants are familiar with. If
a large proportion says "Matlab", then I would make frequent
references to Matlab so people can relate. I would definitely not
*teach* Matlab, but I would *mention* that it's all fine [breathe in,
breathe out] if their current pipeline is mostly Matlab (resp. Excel):
from now on, they may be able to improve their pipeline and make their
lives easier, typically by using Python for some steps (or new steps).
Just so they are not traumatized/discouraged with an overwhelming
"okay, I got it all wrong, I have to rewrite everything in Python!" I
basically concur with previous comments on vulnerability and shaming.
Cheers,
Marianne
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Matt Davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> As Trevor noted, we also need to be very clear and up front about workshop
>> goals. I don't know how this specific workshop was advertised, but we should
>> be careful about saying "use Excel better" when we really mean "use Excel as
>> little as possible".
>>
>> Ah, but there it is again! Do we *really* really mean 'use excel as little
>> as possible'? Why? Because it's bad? And the student should feel bad for
>> liking it? Matt, of course you don't mean that somewhat ridiculous
>> extrapolation, but it's a super easy rabbit hole to accidentally fall down
>> if a student is as vulnerable as you (rightly) say.
>
>
> To be clear, I meant here that we should be careful to advertise workshops
> honestly. I was not advocating an official SWC position on spreadsheets.
>
> That said, I personally would, in fact, advise most any scientist or data
> professional to use Excel as little as *practically* possible. Why? Because
> I can save them time and certain pitfalls by helping them move to other
> tools. And I can do that without being condescending, shaming them, or
> trivializing the things for which Excel is useful.
>
> Best,
> Matt
>
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