My understanding is Excel is tightly coupled with VBA, rather than with other scripting languages. If I were a heavy user of Excel and Excel were the norm in my environment, I'd prefer to learn VBA as scripting language in order to take advantage of full power of Excel. In other words, Excel+VBA and R users could be two different audience segments (very likely in different professional areas) and we can offer two separate curriculum (i.e., independent sessions) for them to tailor to their own needs. Of course, It's another story if SWC's mission is for open-source languages only.
BTW, I am neither VBA programmer nor VBA advocate, although I worked for Microsoft before. My point is the selection of language and/or programming environment is very domain and task dependent, besides subjective biases. Cheer, -kai On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:02 PM, Bill Mills <[email protected]> wrote: > An interesting question is coming into focus here - are we trying to > teach best practices *within a toolset* (so we fork and teach excel and VBA > separately from R), or are we doing advocacy to funnel our students towards > the tools that most promote best practice (so we continue to teach both and > contrast the two)? > > I think either is a valid option, and we should discuss more as a > community what we want, what we can do, and how we can do it well. Joon > makes a good point on the side of advocacy; the risk there is always that > we will alienate people by being too heavy-handed, as was the case with the > student in the original story, and we need to think about how to perform > that advocacy, if that is indeed the path we choose, without condescending > to students' current practice. > > I think Josh's story about the professor who successfully participated in > the python workshop, but just didn't see the value, contains a key lesson. > The level of proficiency achieved at the end of one bootcamp isn't enough > to make the benefits of a scripting language totally self-evident. As I > think Ivan rightly points out, we've 'won' when we go the extra mile to > illustrate the value of the workflow we promote in a convincing way - and > when we do, its virtues stand on their own, no trash talk for excel or > anything else required. > > But, to Trevor's and other's point about deeply entrenched familiarity > with excel - you're right, there is a limit to advocacy's reach. Is there a > way we can reach both audiences? What if day 1 was 'best practices in > excel', a genuine investment in doing the best science possible with this > tool, and day 2 was 'the power of scripting', where we focused on > illustrating the value proposition Ivan et al mention? That way, excel > die-hards get a lesson that respects their decision and that they can use, > and people who are willing to consider something different have a space to > explore that, too. > > As always, structural prescriptions like this are highly case dependent. > But this could be one framing that has something for everyone, when > speaking to an excel-heavy audience. > > > On 2014-09-19 4:40 PM, Ivan Gonzalez wrote: > > Hi, > > I've recently attended a workshop for data journalists and Excel is > basically what they use: they learn it at journalism schools. This is funny > when you think about it: Excel has established as the must-have tool in the > field, despite of its obvious drawbacks. In my opinion, the main reason is > the argument "I'm not a geek/math person, so I cannot program at all, but I > can use Excel, because everybody can use Excel". How the instructor > approaches this issue is very important, as a fraction of the people in our > workshops are trying to overcome this barrier, are feeling insecure and > intimidated and happy to jump back to their comfort zones. > > The second thing I would say is that more than teaching them a new tool > (say R to ditch Excel), we're teaching them a new way of working: automate > things that you repeat often, have your files under (version) control, and > collaborate easily with your colleagues. I believe that this is why version > control is the most popular class. People don't have preconceptions about > it and solves an obvious problem for them. I totally agree with Dan and > think that when we organize the workshop around this theme, stressing the > connections between lessons and doing a capstone exercise that puts all > together, they see the advantages by themselves (and I'd say we won). > > Best, > > Ivan > > El 19/09/2014, a las 18:03, Joshua Ainsley <[email protected]> escribió: > > Hi everyone, > I agree with many of the points raised and just wanted to briefly add an > experience I had at a bootcamp. > An older professor tried out Python, and was able to get the commands to > work. However, he didn't see how any of it would be more useful for him > compared to Excel, and ended up leaving the bootcamp early. > Some clear examples regarding reproducibility, analysis sharing, and > saving time in every bootcamp could go a long way. > Josh > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Daniel Chen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thanks Bill, and thanks anonymous student for sharing honest feedback. >> >> I personally have no problem with spread sheet applications. I use it >> from time to time when I want to look at my output and color code things >> and stuff... *gasp!* >> >> But I do agree, I have fallen into the 'why do you use excel? <insert >> language here> is so much better' mentality after working in R/Python. >> >> The good thing from the response was "deal[ing] with the uses of Excel, >> where it was weak, and how to use it better." I would suggest >> we continue to build on that (please share what was said there) and to >> reiterate that Excel is not great for reproducibility and code >> checking (unless they are coding in VBA). >> >> 'human readable data' is okay but emphasize that consistency is >> **key**. Meaning, if you are going to put multiple tables on the same >> sheet, ideally these tables will have the same number of columns and rows >> and have a set number of cells separating them. >> >> This way they can transition into the R lesson nicely with the >> XLConnect package (or something similar) that lets you import excel files >> by sheet, column start, column end, row start, row end. This way they can >> at least start to use R for graphics or something, and slowly pick up the >> new language. >> >> The main drawback with Excel is there's no way to check your work. >> Especially if you do a find & replace's to re-code variables. >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Bill Mills <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hey all, >>> >>> So, a student from a workshop a little while ago didn't have too great a >>> time, and asked if their feedback could be shared anonymously with >>> instructors. Feedback follows; be aware, this person is *angry* about what >>> happened, but nevertheless has many valid points; I'd like to put ire aside >>> enough to address the key points within. >>> >>> >>> **** begin student comments **** >>> >>> There was a [workshop] that was meant to introduce Luddites like myself >>> to R and the like. I will admit that R is intimidating, and the fanatical, >>> almost cult-like regard some have for it is more than a tad off-putting to >>> me, so I have put such a lesson off. Boy. I should have put it off >>> longer. The workshop was two days. I came only to the first, though I had >>> planned to go to the second, too. The first part was supposed to deal with >>> the uses of Excel, where it was weak, and how to use it better. Great, I >>> thought. I never had any formal instruction in Excel, and instead have >>> clawed my way into a decent working knowledge of it over the last almost >>> two decades. I am very proud of what I can do with it, and I have found it >>> of great use, but I know there is a ton I don't know, so I was looking >>> forward to that session. However, that session ended up being bitterly >>> offensive. The basic message being conveyed was "you are an idiot for >>> using Excel to do anything expect to put data into R, and an even worse >>> idiot if you do things to make data comprehensible to a human." There were >>> snide cartoons, there was condescension... It was infuriating. The second >>> session was better, but still lousy. That was the introduction to R. >>> However, there was little organization. The files we needed to download >>> were not the ones they told us to download, and this led to a lot of >>> confusion at first. Then the instructor was very disorganized in [their] >>> teaching style, mumbling, not explaining what [they were] doing, and so >>> on. [They] refused to make any handouts explaining the language of R, so >>> we were to input commands based on what [they] entered by following [their] >>> projected screen. However, [they] wouldn't stay in the part of the screen >>> with the commands long enough for us to easily enter the commands, and then >>> [they] didn't explain how the commands worked. By the end I was livid, >>> tired, and very stressed. I was in one of those moods in which I wish I >>> could run through walls or do other Hulk smash sorts of things. So I >>> didn't go the next day, and decided to get back into a better state of mind >>> by going on a camping trip. >>> >>> **** end student comments **** >>> >>> So, there's a bunch of good content here, but the thing that really >>> sticks in my pipe is the line about 'There were snide cartoons, there was >>> condescension...' - I'm certain that there are more perspectives on >>> whatever was presented, and it all came from a place of good intention, but >>> having someone walk away from a workshop feeling like 'an idiot' is >>> something we need to examine whether it was intended or not. >>> >>> This is a complicated topic. There are a lot of problems with excel, and >>> if we can give researchers a better option, we should. But there is also >>> huge value in meeting researchers where they are with respect, and giving >>> them the opportunity to try something new that will empower them, rather >>> than denigrating what they have achieved on their own. I admire researchers >>> who are able to build an analysis framework out of the zero training they >>> receive on the topic, whether I like the tools they choose or not. And if >>> we truly want change, let's lead the charge with opportunity, rather than >>> trying to prod them from behind with aggression. >>> >>> Which is all very nice to say - but how to do it remains a question. I >>> think that we are prone to communication misfires like the one described >>> above when we don't really know how to brooch difficult topics. I propose >>> that we have a discussion about how to approach spreadsheet tools in our >>> workshops at the next Instructor Hangouts, one week from today (on Sept. >>> 26); we can chat about what we want to achieve surrounding spreadsheets, >>> and how to advertise different tools in a way that's going to resonate with >>> students, rather than get their shields up. We're moving to a Hangouts on >>> Air setup for this round, so if you would like to participate in the >>> conversation at 9AM PDT Sept. 26, let me know and I will be sure to save >>> you a speaking spot in the hangout; those that would like to just observe, >>> may do so through the youtube broadcast (links forthcoming). >>> >>> Phew! This is a tough one - but it's also an opportunity to reach even >>> more researchers. Looking forward to what we can come up with together! >>> >>> -- >>> Bill Mills >>> Community Manager, Mozilla Science Lab >>> @billdoesphysics >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing > [email protected]http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org > > > -- > Bill Mills > Community Manager, Mozilla Science Lab > @billdoesphysics > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.software-carpentry.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.software-carpentry.org >
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