*grins* no, you got it all wrong lary. its windows be damned. I still use pc's but I run FreeBsd and linux on them. and... Remember,, I have a windows laptop and a windows desktop. for my girl friend and daughter. Gabriel Vega Certified Technical Support Specialist:A+, Network+ registered Linux user number 405256. Phone: (602) 488-9862 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Wanger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by the blind" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:18 PM Subject: Re: VO and web page access
> Hi Gabe, > > To me at this point Jaws and Window Eyes are the standard. I realize > that a Mac is different but my eexpecttation is that I will enjoy the > same level of access I felt I had with Jaws on the Mac. Now, I know > neither is perfect and am consideratte of all that has been said on > this ttopic. I'm just saying that I will truly feel comfortable with > this when VO and the Mac exceeds what my access expeeriencce was on > the PC. I was not trying to compare one with the other in terms of > PC and Mac. And, just so you guys know, I really enjoy working on my > Mac and spent he last hour promoting it to a group of people on a > chat and people were very interested. I know that the Mac and VO > experience will continue to improve. Gosh, you mac users are just > too die hard!!! PC's be damned!!! > > > On Dec 20, 2005, at 8:41 PM, BlindTech of BlindTechs.net wrote: > > > Lary: > > You said: > > "...a Mac is better. However, like it or not, Jaws and Window Eyes > > are the > > standard and benchmark for blind access to the computer. > > " > > ir.... > > Standard? in who's eyes (excuse the pun) in Access Worlds eyes? in > > Freedom > > scientifics eyes? who says that jaws and window eyes is a standard? > > does > > howl, or supernova fit that standard, or just jaws and window eyes? > > BlindTech > > Website: > > http://blindtechs.net > > Phone: (602) 488-9862 > > Visit our website, where we offer, tech support forums, free email, > > free > > shell accounts, free shoutcast services and more! > > Powered by Unix not Microsoft > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac > > OS X by > > the blind" <[email protected]> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 3:21 PM > > Subject: Re: Re: VO and web page access > > > > > >> "First though, jaws is out. If you keep trying to hold jaws up as > >> your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but > >> you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there. There is a lot > >> you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more > >> complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as > >> access goes." > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I appreciate that those of you using Mac by and large have a > >> belief, and > > rightfully so, that you are using a better computer than a Windows > > box. > > However, you must understand that access to computer applications > > and the > > web is just that, access. Be it a Mac or a PC, that is a basic > > requirement > > for those of us who are vision impaired. When it comes down to > > that issue, > > if your using a Mac or PC it just doesn't matter, you need access. > > Therefore, while Jaws runs on a PC and VO on a Mac, comparisons as > > to how > > accessible things are are rightful and that's what it comes down to > > in the > > end. I don't debate the quality and idea that a Mac is better. > > However, > > like it or not, Jaws and Window Eyes are the standard and benchmark > > for > > blind access to the computer. So, I feel I'm right in comparing > > them. How > > does weighing the accessibility I had with Jaws verses the > > accessibility I > > have with VO cause problems and how is that going to trip me up. > > Jaws gave > > me greater access than what I'm getting with VO. Now, I'm learning > > about VO > > and maybe I get to a point where this isn't an issue but I strongly > > disagree > > with your suggestion here that comparing the accessibility one > > achieves from > > one product or the other is somehow problematic. If I'm entering > > the market > > for a computer its probably near the top of the list for me if I'm > > blind. > > I've got to be sure that I can access the applications that I > > need. If I > > feel that Jaws gives me more access I may go that rout but I bet > > most people > > when it comes down to it would admit that how accessible the screen > > reader > > makes things is a huge part of the decision. I'd like to be able > > to ask for > > help and info here without being criticized because I compare my > > accessibility experiences. Its part of it!!! > >> > >> Thanks, Larry > >> > >> > >>> > >>> From: David Poehlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Date: 2005/12/20 Tue PM 04:18:40 EST > >>> To: General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac > >>> OS X by > > the > >>> blind <[email protected]> > >>> Subject: Re: VO and web page access > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> The below message poses some interesting questions and I'll answer > >>> them from the perspective that we are at vo v1.0. > >>> > >>> First though, jaws is out. If you keep trying to hold jaws up as > >>> your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but > >>> you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there. There is a > >>> lot > >>> you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more > >>> complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as > >>> access goes. > >>> > >>> Your link has some issues that jaws and ie hide quite well and yes, > >>> the issues are real and it looks like VO is at fault but for the > >>> fact > >>> that it does quite a bit of the web well. One thing that can > >>> help is > >>> to turn off cursor tracking with vokeys-shift-f3. You can also try > >>> building links lists using vo keys with u and element lists with vo > >>> keys-i. In these lists, you can cruise or type ahead. As you type, > >>> the lists shorten and if your string is unique enough, you end up > >>> with one link on which you press space and away you go. It gets > >>> faster and easier with a bit of practice. > >>> > >>> On your bofa site issue, I use it too and have not seen this issue. > >>> I do see an issue where you type in an amount and have to wait a bit > >>> to tab till the date field comes up but that is due to page > >>> processing not VO. You can mittigate this to some degree by > >>> using vo > >>> keys with arrows and going to the date field, selecting the date, > >>> then typing the amount in the amount field. The orientation is > >>> different, but it works well and becomes easy. > >>> > >>> I don't do computer digital audio but I know there's been a good > >>> deal > >>> of discussion of it on the list and perhaps if you sent three > >>> messages, one for each topic, folk would find it easier to respond. > >>> > >>> All the best. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Jonnie Apple Seed > >>> With his: > >>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s > >>> > >>> > >>> On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:54 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I just wanted to share some observations/concerns about VO > >>> accessibility on the web that I've noticed in hopes that someone > >>> else > >>> can check some of this out and see what they end up with. > >>> > >>> My biggest concern when buying the Mac was in fact web access. I'm > >>> on the web a lot so it was important to me. Unfortunately, I've > >>> noticed a few issues. If you go over to www.ilounge.com, you will > >>> find that it appears to be a page with frames. It has a top frame > >>> with all kinds of links in it and then a great many links down the > >>> left side of the page. Finally, there is a large frame in the > >>> middle > >>> where text and news headlines are and finally a smaller frame with > >>> advertisements over on the right. It appears to be somewhat a > >>> complex page. When I was working with Jaws on the PC I could easily > >>> move from one frame to the next on pages. Unfortunately, if I move > >>> to interact with the HTML content and start moving with VO keys and > >>> the arrows, it doesn't seem that I can make it out of the top frame > >>> of the page. I think the last link I hear is RSS and then if I > >>> arrow > >>> right or down again I hear nothing. After a second or two it jumps > >>> down to the bottom of the page and reads the legal stuff like Apple > >>> and iPod are property of Macintosh or whatever. Any ideas on how I > >>> can improve my ability to interact with this page? > >>> > >>> Second, I bank with Bank of America and do everything on > >>> www.bankofamerica.com. For the most part I do all right with it. > >>> However, two issues here. Once I'm logged in and using my account I > >>> run in to some difficulties. One of them is that the site is > >>> designed to be very user friendly for screen readers and contains > >>> links that say skip to main content or to skip past this section. > >>> The links you would be skipping run down the left side of the page > >>> and are announcements, links to banking options and things like > >>> that. I know, I'm about to reference back to Jaws again but its > >>> what > >>> I knew and was most comfortable with. In Jaws I could click one of > >>> these skip to links and jump on to the next section of the page. > >>> However, nose such luck in VO. I'm unsure of what the problem is > >>> but > >>> when I select one of these links nothing at all happens. The focus > >>> doesn't move to the main content or even from that link. Any ideas? > >>> > >>> The other difficulty I have with that same page is when I pay my > >>> bills online. I get a page with all of my payees on it and can > >>> enter > >>> amounts and the date to pay them. When I enter the amount to pay by > >>> typing in to the appropriate field and go to leave the field, rather > >>> than continuing on from that point, VO seems to go back to the first > >>> link on the page. I'd rather have it keep going forward from that > >>> very same spot and not need to start over at the top of the page. > >>> I'm less than thrilled at navigation on the web with VO and this > >>> just > >>> complicates things. Thoughts and suggestions welcome. > >>> > >>> Finally, just curious if anyone uses a mail program that is simpler > >>> than the one that comes as part of OSX. > >>> > >>> Oh and I wonder if anyone has suggestions on a program to use to get > >>> album art for all of my music. I have a massive music library and > >>> have just enough vision to do some things in iTunes but all of the > >>> CD's I've burned do not have album art. > >>> > >>> Thanks.> > -- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > >
