I was trying to be smart and I shouldn't have. I apologize! I just
don't want to be the person that isn't getting it or can't receive
help from the list. It is hard because I know for a fact that I am one
of the few in my state that uses a Mac for assesibility and it is so
very frustrating for me personally not to be able to get help. I found
myself pouring my heart out for years helping Windows users training
them on JAWS for work and I decide to make the change to Mac and to be
treated this way from both the list and Mac. I actually learn from
listening to pod-cast and voice files. I don't know what that means,
but if someone tells me something over the phone or hands on I pick it
up and it is memorized forever. I hate e-mail in the sense that I find
it hard to learn from it. I figure if Georgia doesn't know about VO
and the Mac then I want to be the one to pave the way for more of us.
On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:29 PM, John Panarese wrote:
I don't think there was a need to be nasty, Shaun. Let me
try this again, as it seems that my point was either misunderstood
or there is a case of over reacting.
I did not discount or discredit your experience. I know, for a
fact, of several similar ones to yours, and I believe I even opened
my last message by saying that Apple had a long way to go. I'm
sorry, but your statement was presented as a blanket one in which
you were seeming to assertthat your experiences demonstrated how
everyone else's happens to be. Again, I have been hearing several
positive stories that run contrary to what you are presenting. That
was my simple point. Basically, it's like saying that because you
owned a Ford and had nothing but bad experiences with your dealer
and Ford HQ that this is the same for the rest of the car world.
Again, I stress once more that Apple needs to make a direct and
concerted effort to get their staff up to date with working
knowledge of VO and they need, to at least, encourage the Apple
Stores around the world to make a similar effort with their staff.
This is a fact. At the same time, as I said before, it appears that
there are some places this is being addressed. It's too bad that
you have not witnessed what I have in my store when I walked in with
my Mac Book in the spring and two of the guys knew exactly how to
start VoiceOver and how to use it well enough to impress me, I made
it a point to compliment them and the manager.
Take Care
John Panarese
On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:10 PM, VaShaun Jones wrote:
Yes Sir, sorry Sir, Apple is the best and can do no wrong Sir. In
the three Georgia Apple stores I can assure you that VO is the last
thing they can help with. They can tell me more about Windows than
they can tell me about VO. I can say what I want and it is not a
blanketed statement, it is my real life experience. They laid out
the red carpet when I brought my machines, but when you need VO
help you are left to the manual. I am glad you have two people that
can help you in your respective country/state, however we don't. It
is a shame that a person who says anything bad about Apple they
already know that the list will bash them. We spend more time
trying to
people not to talk bad about Apple than we do helping others.
On Nov 9, 2007, at 12:51 PM, John Panarese wrote:
Actually, I do have to jump in here, as you are generalizing a
bit too much. Without a doubt, Apple needs to get their people up
to speed in a lot of areas in regard to VoiceOver, but I have
heard of several people who have, indeed, gotten tech support
from Apple tech support and Apple Care for VO questions. In
addition, I personally know of Apple Stores that are actively
seeking training for their staff on VoiceOver. My local store, in
fact, has two people who can use VO and answer questions. Not the
norm, I know, but please do not make blanket statements that lack
complete accuracy.
Take Care
John Panarese
On Nov 9, 2007, at 8:47 AM, VaShaun Jones wrote:
Sorry, but who can you call for VO help? Surely not Apple. I
think most of you guys are stuck in your ways and will not admit
that you can't go to Apple to help with VO concerns. Most of the
people who use Mac on this list have unsubscribed because of the
same attitude.
On Nov 9, 2007, at 8:15 AM, David Poehlman wrote:
give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish....
On Nov 8, 2007, at 9:38 PM, VaShaun Jones wrote:
Sorry, but since you have singled yourself out to specifically
answer, what exactly are you answering? It is common curtasy to
answer e-mails. What if they stop answering phone calls too? If
you have a product you should support it. As far as how long it
takes, who cares how long it takes? You have always carried your
responses in a do it yourself/read the help/ don't you already
know/ duhh, stupid short answer kinda way. I have seen on
numerous occasions a new switcher or potential switcher ask a
question and we will break our necks to tell them how great the
Mac is, but when someone ask a simple question that you know the
answer to, you tell them it is obvious. You can't call Apple and
get tech help with VO nor can you e-mail them. They have the
same views as most of the people on this list and that is that
it is in a manual, in help or on the net so go find it. If
someone talks bad about Apple you all get mad and tell them to
creteec there message to put the Mac and VO in the best light
possible instead of letting them have there own view. I research
for a living and on my free time I use my Mac and often times
turn to you guys for a quick answer. I turn to you because you
have already done the research. I turn to you because I need
your help and you talk down to people who ask a question. My
question to both David and Sheryl in particular, is why?
On Nov 8, 2007, at 9:06 PM, David Poehlman wrote:
I'm answering this one. How much time is it taking, how much
time does it take to research a problem, write up the solution,.
I don't respond to emails when the solution to the issue is
evident.
On Nov 8, 2007, at 8:02 PM, VaShaun Jones wrote:
There is no excuse for not answering e-mails no matter the
company or status, bug fixes or not. If you submit a e-mail
that is valid, understandable and related to a issue, problem
or praise. The proper thing at a minimum is to respond. Trust
me that accessibility e-mail address is not the forum that the
developers are reading. Not responding to e-mails is ridiculous
On Nov 8, 2007, at 5:37 PM, David Poehlman wrote:
If you were sitting in there seat and had a choice of
responding to messages all day or fixing bugs, what would you
do?
On Nov 8, 2007, at 5:16 PM, Dan Keys wrote:
Hello Rich and list,
I'd like to make an observation regarding my experiences with
Apple's Accessibility Group.
Never in the numerous times that I've written to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
have I ever got a responce. It would be better for someone to
respond to email, than to never respond. I know that a few
people have received replies from Apple's Accessibility group,
but I sure never have. It kind of gives the appearance that
they don't want anything to do with the customers who use
Apple's products, in particular, VoiceOver or any other
accessibility applications.
On Nov 8, 2007, at 1:53 PM, Rich Caloggero wrote:
I want to file a bug / suggestion with Apple, specifically
related to
Safari, VoiceOver, and Webkit. Should I simply send eMail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], or should I goto the webkit.org site
and use their
bug tracking system?
I guess what I'm really asking is: which software is
controling the behavior
I see with respect to VoiceOver and the web (Safari, Webkit,
or VoiceOver)?
I assume that there is no simple answer to this question, and
that to some
extent all three are involved.
A related question: if I send mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], are there
guidelines or a certain form the message must follow, aside
from the usual:
include specific version numbers of all components, provide
test cases, be
clear about what the problem is, and provide clear steps to
reproduce?
Thanx much in advance.
-- Rich
