hmm, need to clean that fn key. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Esther" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: numpad commander
Hi Randy, On Oct 25, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Randy Stegall wrote: > Hi Esther, > > That is a bummer and a show stopper for me. Btw, is the fn key > sticky? As Louie suggested, it's possible to get a numeric keypad attachment for a laptop. It's just not something that I've tried. I hadn't played much with the sticky keys, but a quick check shows that the fn key is sticky. > > > We need to lobby audible to change that button to a link that any > screen reader can see. I suggest a standard listen link. I still > can't get at that symbol reliably. > I sent Audible suggestions about this, and most recently also sent them the link to the lioncourt.com description of what's involved in trying to navigate to the sound samples using VoiceOver. When I first encountered the problem with their switch to embedded Flash, I didn't realize that it was the fact that Flash does not expose itself to VoiceOver that is the problem. If you're interested, here's my most recent post to them from a month and a half ago. Also, to be fair, they did listen to my inputs early this year about designing the Audible Kids site to have more accessible playing of sound samples. Subject; Making Sound Sample Accessible to Apple's VoiceOver Screen Reader and Safari Hello, Use of the Adobe Flash Player for audio samples poses accessibility challenges for visually disabled users browsing the Audible web site using Apple's built-in screen readers, VoiceOver. The problem is that Flash players don't provide any points that can be recognized by Apple's API (Accessibility guidelines), and therefore there are no anchor points to navigate to in order to play sound samples. Since the Flash format is proprietary, a fix for this must ultimately come from Adobe, as it did eventually for Windows screen readers. While Flash is popular, it's adoption renders part of a web site inaccessible to some users. Would it be possible to provide an alternative way to play sound samples on the Audible.com site? At the UK Audible site, there are separate links marked "No flash player?" that can be used. (Your own Audible Kids has a more accessible design, where the sound sample links can be used.) The ironic fact is that of the four sites (Audible in the US, UK, France, and Germany), it is only the main Audilble.com that presents this problem -- the other three country sites are accessible for playing sound samples, and the Audible.com site used to be accessible, as well. There is an increasing trend for using the VoiceOver screen reader on the Mac: (1) first, because it is built into every Apple Computer now produced, (2) secondly. because of the jump in its capabilities since it included iTunes use (starting March 2007), and with the introduction of the Leopard operating system in Fall 2007, (3) because of the proliferation of virtual machine products (VMWare's Fusion and Parallels) that make it possible to run both Windows and Mac OS X operating systems on current Mac computers (making a transition from a Windows screen reader easier). and (4) because of Apple's increasing penetration of the educational market. Given these trends, it would be very desirable if Audible's web site design could be made more accessibile for navigation and browsing with VoiceOver and Safari, and this would be appreciated by a growing market segment. Please consider this in your web site design by offering other ways to sample audiobook content. For background information, please see the article on playing Audible samples with VoiceOver at Lioncourt.com: http://www.lioncourt.com/2008/07/19/play-samples-on-audiblecom-with-voiceover/ This is offered as a tip, of how to start from the nearest "visible" link for VoiceOver (the "Listen" element) and gives directions on how to move the mouse cursor around until it falls over the Flash player element to activate sample playing. The other accessible alternative ways to sample the content would be to either visit the iTunes Store and play the sample, or visit the UK Audible site, where the samples can be played.Thank you. Hopefully you can make it easier for people to buy a great product. The response was: Dear Esther,Thank you for contacting Audible.com. Wow, thank you for the very detailed email. You brought up very valid points and I completely understand your frustrations and your concerns. I will definitely pass this feedback on to the appropriate departments for further review. I'm sure that they will take these considerations in to account for future updates with the Audible web site. Thank you for taking the time to provide this great feedback on how we can improve the Audible service and thank you for your patience while we work to improve the Audible web site. In addition you can always send your feedback to [EMAIL PROTECTED] as we love hearing feedback from customers such as yourself.Here at Audible, we do truly value and appreciate your business; if you need further assistance, please respond to this email or if you wish, provide me with a contact number and the best available time to reach you.For additional questions, how to contact us, and hours of operation, please visit: http://www.audible.com/contactus Sincerely, Jake Audible.com Technical Just FYI. Cheers, Esther > Randy > On Oct 25, 2008, at 8:09 PM, Esther wrote: > >> Hi Randy and Jacob, >> >> The situation with the new laptops without the numeric keypad >> option (on MacBooks these are the models manufactured after >> November 2007) is slightly weirder, but basically Jacob is >> correct. The slightly weird part comes about because laptops also >> support a Universal Access menu feature called "Mouse Keys" that >> lets folks who have mobility problems move the position of their >> mouse cursor using the numeric keypad keys. When you reference the >> central key or "5" in a numeric keypad for the position of the >> mouse cursor, pressing the key above it ("2") will move the mouse >> cursor up one screen pixel unit, pressing the key below it ("8") >> will move the mouse cursor down one screen pixel unit, and >> similarly for left ("4") and right ("6") motion. You could also >> move diagonally (up and to the left with "1", up and to the right >> with "3", etc.) >> >> On the older laptops, there were two ways you could use the numeric >> keypad keys with Mouse Keys activated: You could either first >> toggle on the numeric keypad by pressing the Numlock (F6) key. That >> turned the right hand side of your laptop into a numeric keypad, so >> "7-8-9" mapped to the same numbers on the numeric keypad, "u-i-o" >> mapped to "4-5-6", and "j-k-l" mapped to "1-2-3". (All this would >> be announced correctly in VoiceOver and you could use keyboard >> practice mode to check the keys; you also got the plus, minus, 0, >> comma, period, and other numpad keys adjacent to these.) >> Alternatively, you could press the Fn key in combination with the >> Numpad letter keys to get the equivalent Numpad functions without >> toggling the Numlock key on: Fn+u, Fn+i, and Fn+o was like pressing >> "4-5-6" on a numeric keypad. The "I" key was the center of the >> numeric keypad, and corresponded to "5". >> >> Even though Apple removed the Numlock key in the later model >> laptops, they still had to support users who needed to use Mouse >> Keys to position their cursor. So if you turn Mouse Keys on in the >> Universal Access menu under System Preferences, part of your >> keyboard works to allow you to move the cursor around, and >> pressing Fn+u will move your mouse one screen pixel to the left, Fn >> +8 will move your mouse one pixel up, Fn+k moves one pixel down, >> and Fn+o moves one pixel right. (I don't really think about this >> -- the center key is the "i" key and I just press Fn plus the key >> to the left, right, up, or down from the "i" key to move the cursor >> in that direction). >> >> As a bonus, when you have Mouse Keys turned on, Fn+i acts like a >> hardware click --- just as though you had Numpad Commander turned >> on and were pressing the "5" key on a numerica keypad. >> >> So you might wonder whether you can get some of the other Numpad >> Commander keys working if you turn Mouse Keys on and enable Numpad >> Commander in the VoiceOver preferences. Apple advises you not to >> do this in their VoiceOver guide for Leopard. What happens is that >> you get the Numpad Commander functions for the partial numeric >> keypad that Mouse Keys gives you, but then you can't use your >> Command key. Bit of a bummer. >> >> Just FYI. And the reason for using Mouse Keys at all here, is that >> there are some instances where Flash doesn't disclose web page >> elements to VoiceOver, but where, if you can get there with your >> mouse, you can click and access content. As an example, the sound >> samples for the (U.S.) Audible.com audiobooks are embedded flash, >> but you can play the sound samples on the page if you use Mouse >> Keys (or other means) to navigate to the samples. See the Mac- >> cessibility quick tip about this at lioncourt.com: >> >> http://www.lioncourt.com/2008/07/19/play-samples-on-audiblecom-with-voiceover/ >> >> Cheers, >> >> Esther >> >> >> >> On Oct 25, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Randy Stegall wrote: >> >>> Ah, I knew there was a reason I did not care for those >>> keyboards. :) >>> >>> Randy >>> On Oct 25, 2008, at 5:45 PM, Jacob Schmude wrote: >>> >>>> If you've got a keyboard with a numpad or an older laptop with >>>> the numpad overlay that is. The past few generations of laptops >>>> as well as the new wireless keyboards lack any sort of numpad >>>> support whatsoever. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 25, 2008, at 14:42, Randy Stegall wrote: >>>> >>>>> Using numpad commander numpad plus interacts and numpad minus >>>>> stops interacting. Thus there only 2 keys to remember. :) >>>>> >>>>> Hth, >>>>> >>>>> Randy >>>>> On Oct 25, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Estelita wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yeah, if we remember how to do it. >>>>>> As myself, I always look at my notes when I work on my Mac. >>>>>> However: I admired the developers' idea by integrating voice in >>>>>> the Mac, it gives us choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Poehlman" >>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> > >>>>>> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of >>>>>> Mac OS Xby theblind" <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:04 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple Seeds Mac OS X 10.5.6 to Developers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Speaking from a pure design standpoint as a point of fact, the >>>>>>> vo interface >>>>>>> is a brilliant design. if you have trouble with >>>>>>> control-option-shift-down/up arrow, you can most often use tab >>>>>>> and shift tab >>>>>>> and arrows to do many things, you can also use the item >>>>>>> chooser in many >>>>>>> windows. Interacting is brilliant because it provides a way >>>>>>> of interacting >>>>>>> with tthings instead of them getting in the way when you don't >>>>>>> need or want >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Estelita" >>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of >>>>>>> Mac OS Xby >>>>>>> theblind" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:57 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple Seeds Mac OS X 10.5.6 to Developers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think not only the vo find feature needs refining, there are >>>>>>> more features >>>>>>> that need lots of twigging before we land to where we want. >>>>>>> Personally, I don't really like this interacting command. >>>>>>> We have to remember 4 keys to do this. >>>>>>> Since voiceover is just new, we just hope the developers will >>>>>>> come up with >>>>>>> the key combinations that are easy to remember. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "kaare dehard" >>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of >>>>>>> Mac OS X by >>>>>>> theblind" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 4:12 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple Seeds Mac OS X 10.5.6 to Developers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I for one would like to see some touchups done to the vo find >>>>>>>> feature, >>>>>>>> It's good as far as it goes, I have found that on larger >>>>>>>> busier pages it >>>>>>>> is somewhat inconsistant as to what and when it will find >>>>>>>> something. I >>>>>>>> don't see why one day it will find something and behave, but >>>>>>>> on another >>>>>>>> just for giggles I look for the same thing and it's not >>>>>>>> there. Going >>>>>>>> windowsish isn't the way I'd like to see things go either, >>>>>>>> but I am still >>>>>>>> mindful that some refining would certainly be appreciated. >>>>>>>> On 24-Oct-08, at 11:08 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 24 okt 2008 kl. 16.48 skrev Jacob Schmude: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Further, I for one hope that Voiceover doesn't borrow too >>>>>>>>>> much from the >>>>>>>>>> Windows screen readers' methods of web navigation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I couldn't agree with you more there. The last thing i want >>>>>>>>> is a mac >>>>>>>>> platform with a windows screen reader. I want this os as >>>>>>>>> unique and as >>>>>>>>> good as it is today! >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> /Krister >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> Yahoo! Messenger - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing. >>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>>>> All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of [EMAIL PROTECTED]@! come-ons? Let our >>>>>> SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
