> Grappelli has done a great job of skinning the admin interface. It depends which version you check. We are currently in the decision of breaking appart from the Django admin and create a standalone app or stick with it[0]..
We have started to be a lot more than a "skin". We are currently in the process of merging two branches, one in which all the HTML have been refactored with a grid system and semantically clean widgets implementation with my branch, in which I rewrote all the JavaScript style using jQuery UI. When this will be done, there will not be much of the original admin front end code left, if at all. As now we tried to stabilize to existing functionalities. But all this work will hopefully lead to a way more flexible, accessible and themable admin interface. The only difference is that we loose some dead weight by dropping support of old browsers, which allowed us to work more efficiently and quickly. [0] http://groups.google.com/group/django-grappelli/browse_thread/thread/cf5a1ebfdf4d0370 regards, -- Maxime Haineault Consultant Web / Associé ∞ Motion Média http://motion-m.ca m...@motion-m.ca (450) 374-4822 On Feb 7, 12:52 pm, "j...@jeffcroft.com" <j...@jeffcroft.com> wrote: > Several responses: > > > First off, there are designers who have contributed great amounts of > > stuff to the Django community. Nathan Borror has his Basic Apps (which > > interestingly is a designer contributing code, because that's what he > > can contribute easily). > > Exactly. Christian Metts comes to mind, as well, for a designer who > has contributed a lot to the Django community (typogrify, compressor, > inlines, etc.) > > > * Design by committee almost invariably sucks / deadlocks. > > Right, but I don't necessarily think that means we have to have a > singer design leader (whatever you want to call him/her) in the Django > community. Good design requires a singular vision, but there's no > reason that vision can't be shared by a handful of people. It's when > there are several different visions competing with one another that > things go terribly wrong -- usually you end up with a watered down, > half ass version of all of them, instead of fully realizing any > particular vision. > > > I *don't* think that the design czar necessarily needs to be a > > rockstar designer. Their job is not to design everything > > singlehandedly. Their job is to shepherd the design process within > > django core. > > Absolutely agree. > > > considering these zones, I guess I´m following jeffs proposal for a > > team (with, maybe, a team-leader), because no "design czar" I know is > > really good with all the mentioned topics. > > Well, like Idan said, I wouldn't expect a "design czar" or team of > design czars to be able to contribute in all those "zones." The point > of the design czar, as we're discussing it now, is not to make every > design-related change themselves, but rather to shepherd them. > > Also, let's keep in mind that the admin interface isn't the only area > of Django where interaction design is needed. The other *huge* one I > see is the Django website itself. > > > This certainly wasn't my understanding of the situation. It was my > > understanding that anyone was welcome to contribute, and designs would > > be judged on merit. This is certainly the sentiment expressed in the > > FAQ and contribution guide. > > The problem with this is that no active member of the core team is > *qualified* to judge designed based on merit. > > > If it's been contradicted by someone else in the core, I'd be > > interested in hearing how and where -- if only so that I can > > get on the same page (or at least work out which page others are on). > > I've seen several instances on the lists where you and other members > of the core team have responded to design-related suggestions and > questions with, effectively, "That's Wilson's thing." I've also gotten > this response in person from people at DjangoCon and from the time > I've spent in Lawrence, as well as in IM conversations with members of > the core team. This implies that no one but Wilson is welcome to make > changes, and/or that if you want to get anything done, design-wise, > you're going to have to talk to Wilson. Which, since he's MIA, is > pretty difficult for most people. I'm lucky enough to be friends with > Wilson, so I *have* talked to him about this stuff many times, but > those conversations aren't ever "on the record," so to speak -- no > other member of the core team is around to hear them. > > We've absolutely moved past the point in this discussion where > designers feel unwelcome. The fact that we're still talking about this > means you are, in fact, interested in finding a way to make use of > designers' suggestions in Django core. I thank all of you for that. > > > So what about the "Design Czar"? In practical terms, what is being > > called a "Design Czar" is really just another name for "active member > > of the core team with design credentials". > > Yes, I think so. Really, I think it's pretty much what we already have > in Wilson, except that he's inactive. > > > The stagnation of Django's visual/UX design, and the perception that "none > > but Wilson may contribute" can probably be traced back to this single > > point of failure. > > Agreed. > > > Now, I completely agree that "design by committee" doesn't work, but I > > don't accept that the consequence of this is that Django's design/UX > > core team must be a single person. There must be some middle ground > > where a design leader can defer certain design and implementation > > decisions to lieutenants that he trusts. > > Absolutely. Like I said, my opinion is that there needs to be a single > vision, not a single designer. > > > any designer who want to help contribute to Django is welcome to > > make a proposal (backed by mockups, CSS, JavaScript, or whatever is > > needed) > > Serious question from someone who's never contributed to Django: what > does a "proposal" entail? I'd be all for putting in writing my > thoughts on what is currently wrong with the admin interface from an > interaction design perspective, and how I'd like to see it work, but > I'm not sure I'm willing to put the hours in that would be needed to > do, as you say, mockups, CSS, JS, etc. That may mean I'm not committed > enough to this to contribute to Django, and if so, that's fine. I'm > just curious what exactly is needed for my thoughts to qualify as a > "proposal," and therefore be taken seriously. When people make > proposals for other contributions, do they write code first, or do > they first tell the core team what they're *going* to do, get some > degree of interest/buy-in, and *then* go write the code? How much > upfront work is necessary before you've got a "proposal?" I write > proposals for potential clients all the time, but I'd never include a > mockup in them. > > > Django needs someone who will start and get the admin job done, but > > some decisions must be made before by the community. For example: > > whether to use CSS reset or not? If, which one? > > I completely disagree that a technology question like "will we use a > CSS reset" should be put *before* the interaction design of Django's > admin interface. Interaction design has absolutely nothing to do with > CSS, and can be done entirely independent of the technology that will > or won't eventually be used to implement it. Technology decisions > should be made in support of the design, not the other way around. > > Also, I'll say again: this discussion shouldn't really just be able > the admin interface -- it should be more broad, talking about who can > lead *anything* interaction design-related in the Django community. > > > If the admin application were designed for skinability, which would be > > some work, but which I believe could be done by a non-designer with > > input from various designers as they attempt to write skins, would a > > Design Czar really be necessary? > > I say design leadership is still needed, because this isn't just about > the admin interface, and because it's not just about skinnability, > either. Some of us have ideas for an overarching, sweeping, re- > thinking of the admin interface. There seems to be a misconception > here that we're talking about the admin interface's *look*. I'm not. > I'm talking about its *design*. > > Grappelli has done a great job of skinning the admin interface. But > we're talking about something much greater than that, here (or at > least I am). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en.
