On May 10, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Simon <si...@exonar.com> wrote: > Hi, > > When I started using Python a couple of months ago, a quick Google for > frameworks turned up a lot of results for Django so I decided to give it a > spin. > > I'd like to give some feedback on my experience to date. There are a lot of > features I really love, some that are a little quirky and some that are > downright inflexible. None of this will be news - it's the same for every > framework. That said, I started to have doubts when I was attempting to find > solutions/workarounds to the problems I encountered. > > Today was the 5th or 6th time that I've ended up at the ticket system and > seen people saying "This would really help me" and a core developer saying "I > don't see the need" (rather arbitrarily IMHO) and closing as wontfix. This is > invariably followed by people asking for reconsideration which in turn gets a > "use the mailing list" with varying degrees of rudeness. > > While I'm sure it's not the real reason, sending people to the mailing lists > feels like a way of brushing disagreement under the carpet. There's no > obvious way to follow on from the discussion in the ticket to the relevant > discussions in the mailing list (if any) and visitors coming by years later > now have to go and hunt through an archive to find out if there's any chance > of a change.
It's actually the opposite. More people read and participate on the mailing list than on the ticket tracker. So posting to the mailing list is actually a good way to get _more_ people to see your issue. > > I feel that the general attitude expressed in some of the tickets is poor. > The one which prompted this post is > https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/901. I think comment 20 is a good > demonstration of my point. A couple of users were getting frustrated at the > lack of discussion/progress which resulted in a fairly sanctimonious rant. There was no progress because no one was willing to champion the feature on the mailing list. > > Some other tickets I've ended up on have proposed patches and seem to have > sat in "Design decision" for years, which again gives the impression that the > core team didn't like it so just sort of ignored it until it went away. If I recall DDN was recently gotten rid of for exactly this problem. It wasn't clear who had the right to make said design decision and it often languished waiting for Jacob to have time to make a decision. > > So, to be honest, the impression I'm getting WRT new features in Django is > "Don't bother proposing it 'cos it's not going to happen". Proposing features is fine and is useful. However there are a massive number of features and bugs that people can work on. You're right in that if you're just tossing ideas out there it's unlikely that they will get added because for each new feature you need someone willing to do the work to discuss it, champion it, and implement it. If these features are important to you then engage the process and help shape Django. > > There are StackOverflow questions (another) on the topic and numerous other > sources pointing at this particular ticket wondering why it hasn't been > implemented. The only reason I can see is that "jacob" wasn't convinced by > the (first) use case. That's why the ticket wasn't accepted immediately. It hasn't gotten past that because no ones stepped up to advocate for the feature. > > Now, I admit that I'm probably seeing the worst side of the problem, there > are probably hundreds of other features which did get in (which is why > there's documentation not tickets for me to find) but that doesn't make the > situation I'm seeing better, just smaller. > > Perhaps the fact that people keep posting on closed tickets shows that the > current flow to the mailing lists isn't a good one? Maybe either add a "Start > a topic about this ticket" link or maybe even just allow discussion to > continue on the ticket as many others do? While using tickets is fine if the project tends to do so but Django does not. So a lot of people simply don't pay attention to the ticket tracker while far more people are involved in the mailing list. > > I'm unlikely to use Django moving forward. There are a number of reasons and > I'd be lying if I said this was the biggest but it was a factor in my > decision. > > Anyway, I wanted to take a few minutes and share the impressions I've had to > date - perhaps this way, others will have a better experience in future. > > Thanks for reading > > Simon > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > ----------------- Donald Stufft PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA
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