I was glad to see Kenneth's email because I had all the same concerns. I would assume the English manuals are targeted at English speakers. I cannot understand why a good translator would have problems with possessives or contractions. Clarity and brevity, plus an example or two, would I think generally make both a reader and a translator's job easier. Done of the suggestions seem to me to work against brevity.
Just my 2c. luke On Sun., 29 Mar. 2020, 03:29 Peter Schofield, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Kenneth > > Having worked internationally as a Technical Writer, I understand what is > required to get the message. I have had personal experience of non-English > people not understanding apostrophes and word contractions. LO has no > control over who uses our software and writing in Simplified English avoids > any questions being asked on what does this mean. > To the best of my knowledge, Simplified English including my suggestions > was originally created by Caterpillar who have a huge international > clientele. It works for Caterpillar and also Airbus, so why not LO. > Regards > Peter Schofield > Sent from my iPad Mini > > > On 27 Mar 2020, at 20:19, Kenneth Hanson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Sorry to butt in after being absent so long, but I'm worried about these > > proposed rules. > > > > I agree with rules to keep sentences and paragraphs short, breaking up > long > > sentences and paragraphs when possible. On the other hand, I'm uneasy > about > > rules like Peter's (1) and (2) stipulating maximum numbers of words or > > sentences. If the numbers are intended as rules of thumb, they should be > > rewritten to reflect this. If they are meant to be hard limits, it's easy > > to imagine situations where following such a rule could make the result > > harder to understand. > > > > Second, I struggle to see how rules (3-5) would make translation easier, > or > > whether this is a good reason to implement them. > > > > Regarding (4), if a translator's command of English is so poor that they > > cannot understand common contractions, it seems doubtful that using > > one-to-one replacements would make all the difference. > > > > Regarding (5), if anything I think Latin abbreviations should be avoided > > for the sake of readers of the English version, for maximum > accessibility. > > It appears from the wiki history that this provision was already in the > > style guide. > > > > Finally, regarding (3), genitive possessives are such a basic component > of > > English grammar that I worry that circumlocutions would harm readability > to > > an unacceptable degree, even if this improves ease of translation. No > > examples are given, so I don't know what is intended. There are examples > of > > cases to avoid possessive pronouns already in the style guide, but these > > are not contexts in which a full noun (phrase) would be used. > > > > I think I understand the background that Peter is coming from, but I > think > > this issue requires more discussion. > > > > --Kenneth > > > > > >> On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 6:59 AM Peter Schofield <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> Hello Olivier > >> > >> Definitely no objections from me. Hopefully, we will then get a standard > >> English appearing across all the guides. > >> > >> Regards > >> Peter Schofield > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 27 Mar 2020, at 12:32, Olivier Hallot < > [email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello All > >>> > >>> If no objection rises, I'll merge the suggestions in the wiki page. > >>> > >>> Kind regards > >>> Olivier > >>> > >>> Em 27/03/2020 07:28, Peter Schofield escreveu: > >>>> Hello Ilmari > >>>> > >>>> The Style Guide does not cover all my suggestions, mainly use of > >> apostrophe and word contractions. These two items do cause problems when > >> translating English. > >>>> My ideas about paragraphs and sentences are similar to the Style > Guide, > >> but I have put a number in the requirement. This does help if writers > >> follow the suggestion. > >>>> Regards > >>>> Peter Schofield > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 27 Mar 2020, at 10:11, Ilmari Lauhakangas < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Peter Schofield kirjoitti 27.3.2020 klo 10.23: > >>>>>> After going through the meeting notes (which I could not attend), I > >> though that it maybe a good idea to air my views about writing > standards. > >>>>>> The following ideas come from my experience in working within > >> Simplified English rules when I worked for Airbus and Ericcson. > >>>>>> 1. Paragraphs no more the six sentences long. > >>>>>> 2. Sentences should only contain a maximum of 20 words, with the > >> occasional sentence allowed to be 25 words. > >>>>>> 3. Never use the possessive apostrophe (for example Peter’s). > Rewrite > >> the sentence to remove the need for a possessive apostrophe. > >>>>>> 4. Never use contractions of words (for example: don’t becomes do > >> not; won’t becomes will not, and so on) > >>>>>> 5. Never use Latin abbreviations (for example: etc becomes and so > on; > >> e.g. becomes for example; i.e. becomes that is). > >>>>>> There are many more rules, but the above basic rules are a good > >> start. They are designed to make English text easier to translate into > >> other languages and that is why it is called Simplified English. > >>>>>> Please let me know your opinion. > >>>>> > >>>>> There is a style guide in the wiki: > >> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/DocumentationTeamInfo/StyleGuide > >>>>> > >>>>> Ilmari > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: > >> [email protected] > >>>>> Problems? > >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > >>>>> Posting guidelines + more: > >> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > >>>>> List archive: > >> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > >>>>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Olivier Hallot > >>> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator > >>> Comunidade LibreOffice > >>> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00 > >>> http://tdf.io/joinus > >>> > >>> -- > >>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: > >> [email protected] > >>> Problems? > >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > >>> Posting guidelines + more: > >> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > >>> List archive: > https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > >>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > >> > >> > >> -- > >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: > [email protected] > >> Problems? > >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > >> Posting guidelines + more: > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > >> List archive: > https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > >> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > >> > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: > [email protected] > > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
