I have worked in Simplified English since 1986 and with translators since 1998. I still write in a Simplified English style because I find that it produces very clear text for users and translators find it easy to translate.
I suggested the “never” rules from my experiences in technical writing. It will produce clear text once people get used to writing in a Simplified English style. The drawback is training and editorial control so that writers no longer write beautiful prose. Text has to be as short as possible so that a user understands easily. Regards Peter Schofield Sent from my iPad Mini > On 29 Mar 2020, at 04:04, Luke Kendall <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I was glad to see Kenneth's email because I had all the same concerns. > I would assume the English manuals are targeted at English speakers. I cannot > understand why a good translator would have problems with possessives or > contractions. > Clarity and brevity, plus an example or two, would I think generally make > both a reader and a translator's job easier. Done of the suggestions seem to > me to work against brevity. > > Just my 2c. > > luke > >> On Sun., 29 Mar. 2020, 03:29 Peter Schofield, <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hello Kenneth >> >> Having worked internationally as a Technical Writer, I understand what is >> required to get the message. I have had personal experience of non-English >> people not understanding apostrophes and word contractions. LO has no >> control over who uses our software and writing in Simplified English avoids >> any questions being asked on what does this mean. >> To the best of my knowledge, Simplified English including my suggestions was >> originally created by Caterpillar who have a huge international clientele. >> It works for Caterpillar and also Airbus, so why not LO. >> Regards >> Peter Schofield >> Sent from my iPad Mini >> >> > On 27 Mar 2020, at 20:19, Kenneth Hanson <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > Hello, >> > >> > Sorry to butt in after being absent so long, but I'm worried about these >> > proposed rules. >> > >> > I agree with rules to keep sentences and paragraphs short, breaking up long >> > sentences and paragraphs when possible. On the other hand, I'm uneasy about >> > rules like Peter's (1) and (2) stipulating maximum numbers of words or >> > sentences. If the numbers are intended as rules of thumb, they should be >> > rewritten to reflect this. If they are meant to be hard limits, it's easy >> > to imagine situations where following such a rule could make the result >> > harder to understand. >> > >> > Second, I struggle to see how rules (3-5) would make translation easier, or >> > whether this is a good reason to implement them. >> > >> > Regarding (4), if a translator's command of English is so poor that they >> > cannot understand common contractions, it seems doubtful that using >> > one-to-one replacements would make all the difference. >> > >> > Regarding (5), if anything I think Latin abbreviations should be avoided >> > for the sake of readers of the English version, for maximum accessibility. >> > It appears from the wiki history that this provision was already in the >> > style guide. >> > >> > Finally, regarding (3), genitive possessives are such a basic component of >> > English grammar that I worry that circumlocutions would harm readability to >> > an unacceptable degree, even if this improves ease of translation. No >> > examples are given, so I don't know what is intended. There are examples of >> > cases to avoid possessive pronouns already in the style guide, but these >> > are not contexts in which a full noun (phrase) would be used. >> > >> > I think I understand the background that Peter is coming from, but I think >> > this issue requires more discussion. >> > >> > --Kenneth >> > >> > >> >> On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 6:59 AM Peter Schofield <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello Olivier >> >> >> >> Definitely no objections from me. Hopefully, we will then get a standard >> >> English appearing across all the guides. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> Peter Schofield >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 27 Mar 2020, at 12:32, Olivier Hallot <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hello All >> >>> >> >>> If no objection rises, I'll merge the suggestions in the wiki page. >> >>> >> >>> Kind regards >> >>> Olivier >> >>> >> >>> Em 27/03/2020 07:28, Peter Schofield escreveu: >> >>>> Hello Ilmari >> >>>> >> >>>> The Style Guide does not cover all my suggestions, mainly use of >> >> apostrophe and word contractions. These two items do cause problems when >> >> translating English. >> >>>> My ideas about paragraphs and sentences are similar to the Style Guide, >> >> but I have put a number in the requirement. This does help if writers >> >> follow the suggestion. >> >>>> Regards >> >>>> Peter Schofield >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> On 27 Mar 2020, at 10:11, Ilmari Lauhakangas < >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Peter Schofield kirjoitti 27.3.2020 klo 10.23: >> >>>>>> After going through the meeting notes (which I could not attend), I >> >> though that it maybe a good idea to air my views about writing standards. >> >>>>>> The following ideas come from my experience in working within >> >> Simplified English rules when I worked for Airbus and Ericcson. >> >>>>>> 1. Paragraphs no more the six sentences long. >> >>>>>> 2. Sentences should only contain a maximum of 20 words, with the >> >> occasional sentence allowed to be 25 words. >> >>>>>> 3. Never use the possessive apostrophe (for example Peter’s). Rewrite >> >> the sentence to remove the need for a possessive apostrophe. >> >>>>>> 4. Never use contractions of words (for example: don’t becomes do >> >> not; won’t becomes will not, and so on) >> >>>>>> 5. Never use Latin abbreviations (for example: etc becomes and so on; >> >> e.g. becomes for example; i.e. becomes that is). >> >>>>>> There are many more rules, but the above basic rules are a good >> >> start. They are designed to make English text easier to translate into >> >> other languages and that is why it is called Simplified English. >> >>>>>> Please let me know your opinion. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> There is a style guide in the wiki: >> >> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/DocumentationTeamInfo/StyleGuide >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Ilmari >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: >> >> [email protected] >> >>>>> Problems? >> >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> >>>>> Posting guidelines + more: >> >> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> >>>>> List archive: >> >> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ >> >>>>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Olivier Hallot >> >>> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator >> >>> Comunidade LibreOffice >> >>> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00 >> >>> http://tdf.io/joinus >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: >> >> [email protected] >> >>> Problems? >> >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> >>> Posting guidelines + more: >> >> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> >>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ >> >>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] >> >> Problems? >> >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> >> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> >> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ >> >> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] >> > Problems? >> > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ >> > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] >> Problems? >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ >> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: [email protected] Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
