You make it sound like alldata and shop manuals fix
the car for you.  NOT!  You are no more likely to
misdiagnose a problem with a haynes manual than you
are a shop manual.  Just cause you "know a guy" who
bought an unneccessary part doesn't mean it's the
manuals fault.  Diagnosing problems and getting the
right fix the first time boils down to experience. 
EVERY home mechanic has gone down the wrong path at
some point, particualarly when they are new to working
on cars or new to the vehicle itself.

I have all three and I can tell you the haynes and
Chilton manuals are fine.  I really don't see what you
have against them or why you think the more expensive
routes are so much superior?  I'd also like you to
post up which are these "inncorrect" electrical
diagrams?  Not having been through everyone one with a
finetooth comb perhaps I missed something.  But don't
pull the wool over everyone's eyes.  Half the shop
manual is electrical diagrams.  The Haynes/Chilton
manuals are not incorrect, they just don't supply
electrical diagrams to things the average home
mechanic isn't going to need.  Why would a hoem
mechanic need the circuit board layout of the BCM? 
The average home mechanic is gonna go to a junkyard
and just get a new one!  Perhaps Haynes/Chilton knows
this and doesn't bother supplying such diagrams. 
Usually it's not even the money it's the hassle of
finding a manual or having to pay a yearly
subscription and then print stuff out and deal with
all that.

I've read both the shop and Haynes/Chilton manuals for
all the work I do on my Trep and I can tell you the
H/C manuals are good manuals and in many cases pull
their how-tos right out of the shop manuals,
illustrations and all.  The haynes/chilton manuals
have served me well for 8 years.  Yes there are some
things they lack when you get into the really nasty
repairs.  But they are a great starting point.

I have no idea what the tempature has to do with how
good a manual is?  If the cold bothers you that much,
then do your repairs in the summer or get a pair of
long johns.  :P

Mike

--- Geoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm sorry, but there's no excuse for incorrect
> electrical diagrams.  The
> fact that the electrical diagrams only show what is
> 'typical' instead of
> what is the case for the specific application on
> that vehicle has misled
> MANY a home mechanic trying to find out why his car
> won't start.  There's a
> guy on rec.autos.makers.chrysler who likes to talk
> about the alternator he
> spent $100 on because the diagnosis the Haynes
> manual lead him through
> caused him to condemn his unit incorrectly, only to
> find out the problem was
> elsewhere once he chucked the Mickey Mouse manual
> and sprung for an AllData
> subscription.
> 
> There is no such thing as a simple mechanical repair
> anymore when it's a
> no-start condition.  Much of the time an electrical
> component is
> implicated.  Nearly 100% of the time you will use an
> electrical test to
> perform a complete diagnosis.
> 
> Now how much of your time do you want to spend out
> in the cold, after dark,
> on a night before you have to use a dead car to get
> to work in the morning,
> following a 'typical' but incorrect Haynes or
> Chilton's manual's substandard
> wiring diagram, spending money you don't have for
> parts you don't need?  As
> for me, the answer is 'none at all'.
> 
> Haynes and Chilton manuals are often so incorrect
> it's irresponsible and
> dangerous, in my opinion.  But I suppose you get
> what you pay for...and what
> you deserve.
> 
> For $5 more than the price of that Haynes manual,
> you can purchase a 1-year
> subscription to Alldata, and get good information. 
> (Or if you live in a
> municipality such as mine, you can use it for FREE
> at your local public
> library.  Try beating FREE with a Chilton's book.)
> 
> For $15-$20 more than the price of that Haynes
> manual, you could also
> contact a seller of used automotive manuals (NOT on
> eBay) and get a good,
> used factory shop manual.  No bidding required.  Try
> Vogel's Shop Manuals.
> I've purchased from him and had an excellent
> experience.
>
http://www.auto-shop-manuals.com/shop_manual_request.html.
> 
> Penny wise, pound foolish.  The first time you buy a
> part you don't need,
> you've erased any 'savings' you might have had
> buying cheap Chilton's or
> Haynes garbage.
> 
> Okay, okay, rant off.
> --Geoff





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