On 1/25/06, Mike Busch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You make it sound like alldata and shop manuals fix > the car for you.
Um, no, I don't believe that's a reasonable inference based on what was written. NOT! You are no more likely to > misdiagnose a problem with a haynes manual than you > are a shop manual. Um, yes, you are. Here, you don't want to believe me? http://tinyurl.com/9n26j http://tinyurl.com/74gbl Just cause you "know a guy" who > bought an unneccessary part doesn't mean it's the > manuals fault. True, on the face of it. On the other hand the "guy" I know is an mechanical engineer, not your average sop. What are YOUR qualifications, Mike? Are YOU qualified to tell us which manual is the better one? I am. Diagnosing problems and getting the > right fix the first time boils down to experience. No. Diagnosing problems is entirely dependent on having a good base of information from which to plan your investigative work. Experience plays a role, certainly. But I don't know of any home mechanics who have the same breadth and depth of experience that a professional does, and still they somehow muddle through. How? Good information. EVERY home mechanic has gone down the wrong path at > some point, particualarly when they are new to working > on cars or new to the vehicle itself. Same is true for the pros. But, I don't see the pros economizing with cheap third-rate manuals. They've got a job to do, a family to feed, and time is of the essence. So they go straight to the source of the best information available. Somehow you've put yourself into the odd position of arguing that second best is 'good enough'. There's a term for that... I have all three and I can tell you the haynes and > Chilton manuals are fine. I really don't see what you > have against them or why you think the more expensive > routes are so much superior? Point, match, game. You have all three. Whatever possessed you to buy three manuals for one car? I bet it went like this: bought the Haynes. Nope, didn't have what you needed. Bought the Chiltons. Nope, didn't have what you needed. Bought the FSM. Got it done. (or more likely, ran off scared to the repair shop and hired a pro.) I on the other hand have bought exactly one manual. Funny, it didn't take me as many steps as you apparently went through. I'd also like you to > post up which are these "inncorrect" electrical > diagrams? Not having been through everyone one with a > finetooth comb perhaps I missed something. Perhaps you did. But don't > pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Half the shop > manual is electrical diagrams. Tells you something, doesn't it? The Haynes/Chilton > manuals are not incorrect, they just don't supply > electrical diagrams to things the average home > mechanic isn't going to need. Why would a hoem > mechanic need the circuit board layout of the BCM? I've been through quite a few FSMs. Never saw a schematic for the BCM in one. Care to point out a page number, Mike? The average home mechanic is gonna go to a junkyard > and just get a new one! If he does so based on the strength of a diagnosis bourne out of information derived from a Haynes or Chilton's manual, then he's more likely than not replacing a part he doesn't need to. Perhaps Haynes/Chilton knows > this and doesn't bother supplying such diagrams. Alternative theory: perhaps Haynes/Chiltons are trying to supply 'potboiler' manuals at the cheapest possible price. Usually it's not even the money it's the hassle of > finding a manual or having to pay a yearly > subscription and then print stuff out and deal with > all that. Ain't no hassle to call an 800 number, send an email, or punch in a credit card number on a website. You make it sound like good information is made out of unobtainium. It isn't. The back of most owner's manuals lists a phone number to order the book from. I've read both the shop and Haynes/Chilton manuals for > all the work I do on my Trep and I can tell you the > H/C manuals are good manuals and in many cases pull > their how-tos right out of the shop manuals, > illustrations and all. But wait! What about that "complete tear-down and reassembly by a professional mechanic"??? Oh, you mean that what the writers really do is just run down to Kinkos with a copy of the FSM? How silly of me! The haynes/chilton manuals > have served me well for 8 years. Yes there are some > things they lack when you get into the really nasty > repairs. But they are a great starting point. If you meant to say 'they're a great starting point...on your way to purchasing a FSM', I'd say that we all don't want to make the same mistake you did, Mike. What constitutes a 'really nasty repair', anyway, Mike? What have you been afraid to tackle yourself? Have you ever actually worked on a car, Mike? I have no idea what the tempature has to do with how > good a manual is? If the cold bothers you that much, > then do your repairs in the summer or get a pair of > long johns. :P Actually, Mike, I'm pretty well equipped to do repairs at any time of the year in relative comfort. I just prefer to avoid wasting my time, which, apparently, you don't seem to have a problem with. I think I would've gotten the hint after the first brand-X 'manual' didn't do the trick. But hey, I understand where you're coming from. If I had wasted $30 on two cheap manuals before spending $30 more on the one good one I needed in the first place, I'd be pretty defensive about it, too. The fact of the matter is, Mike, that most of us have no particular desire to waste time and energy on 'second best' when THE best is just a few dollars more and only a phone call or email away. -- --Geoff MML Moderator/Admin/Occasional SAA/Keeper of the MML Map '92 Acclaim; '98 Intrepid; '03 Grand Caravan Read about AND join the MML at: http://www.moparmailinglist.com Skype: ggariepy68 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Web: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dodge_intrepid> Subscribe: <mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unsubscribe: <mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Moderator: <mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dodge_intrepid/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
