To the list:
Because Kylie requested that people publically "post their annoyance" about
things, I have complied, and in the interest of transparency and honesty, I
am going to state to Kylie PUBLICALLY and FULLY, how I feel. Flame if you
will. I am trying, in the interest of clear communications, to mainly use
"I feel" statements, but I'll probably slip up. I feel hurt and angry about
what she has done, and what she has said about me personally. This is why I
haven't posted to this list for awhile. I thought that it would just drop,
but since it obviously hasn't, after almost a month, I feel compelled to
respond. If you don't want to see this, then *PLEASE DELETE THIS NOW*
---------------------------
Secondary comment:
>
>
>Claudia, these are some nice ideas and please don't abandon them. having
>said that I can see some problems. Telling people they will have to learn
>and follow rules is very middle class and if the practical concerns don't
>stop the poorer from using internet this will.
First of all, they aren't *rules*, they are tried and true suggestions about
how to get along in this somewhat difficult medium. I've read most of them
already, including the eco-psychology stuff, and must agree that they are
really good guidelines about net communications, and the e-p stuff is just
great, period.
>
>In Australia, where I am from, education and the internet can be available
>to the poorest people. Whilst access is not easy it is possible. I am in
>fact attempting to live on the lowest income (for a single person) that
>there is. Apart from teenagers who are starving on the streets because the
>government says there parents must support them.
>
>Perhaps also we should not assume that people with access to the list are
>privelleged. Perhaps most are, but not all.
>
>Another point I must make time and again is - not everyone is from America.
Um, no one has stated this anywhere on the net, Kylie. Why is it that this
is such an issue? I communicate with people from Sweden, China, South
Africa, Germany, Norway, England, Russia, etc, etc., I don't think that
anyone here is under the delusion that this is just an "American" medium.
>this means we have different norms, standards and ways of communicating. I
>recently received the most vitreolic abusive piece of mail privately, in
>response to something I posted publically. Anyone here in Australia would
>say that what I posted was reasonable.
DId I misunderstand something here, Kylie? Are you saying that if you are
poor or from a different country that you should be exempt from behaving
with courtesy? That if you are poor that you somehow should not be expected
to act in a civil and courteous manner? I didn't think that courtesy and
civility had anything to do with your economic status or your nationality!
And if you are poor and have access to the Internet, then your economic
status makes no difference to finding out how to interact with people on
line. There are all kinds of guidelines, hints and help. The only thing
that might prevent one from understanding this is their own stubborness, or
lack of initiative.
I felt your public posts to me were excessively vitriolic, judgemental and
abusive, and when I posted you privately about this, telling you,
essentially, how I felt, narry a word did I hear from you, instead I see
this on the public list. I felt hurt and angered by you calling me a
"classist" which is very far from what I am, is insulting and unkind, as
well as untrue. The reasons now are irrelevant, the discussion is
irrelevant now as well. The fact is that you called me a name that I have a
real problem with, it would be the same as calling me a racist, or sexist.
And I am none of these. You can call me "radical", "bi", Pagan,
"revolutionary", even a "hot-head" but don't call me a classist, racist or
sexist and expect me to quietly accept it. I won't . Because it is
defammatory and slander.
I have a big issue with this kind of thing because I was called names when I
was a kid, (alot, because I was brighter and more outgoing in class) and it
hurt. I was told by my parents to not fight back, or do anything, because
violence of any kind was wrong (which was interesting, since my Dad was in
the military!)....I was told to just ignore things like that, and it would
go away, but it didn't. I strove very hard to be the *good* kid, and not
react. It just got worse, first of all because I moved all the time and was
always in a new environment, and also because I never stood up for myself.
There's another aspect to this as well, which, *BECAUSE* you don't know me
Kylie, really triggered my *hot button*. So now, I react strongly against
such things. I won't tolerate it. And I will defend myself from such
things. I will probably find a middle road eventually, but you triggered an
*extremely* personal button, Kylie, by your remark.
And I will elucidate. I was brought up on Air Bases ALL OVER THE WORLD, my
father was an officer in the US Air Force, a judge, to be exact. Now I know
what you're thinking ("of course she's a classsist"!) hold it....you don't
know the story yet. The U.S. military is an extremely classist environment,
a subculture of U.S culture, and the U.S. Air Force is the elite of the
military. My mother was basically forced for much of my father's career to
go to "Officer's Wives Meetings", the NCO (non-commisionsed officers) wives
had their own clubs. My father was not supposed to "fratenize" with
non-commissioned officers. The only reason my father was in the military
was because in a small dirt-poor town of 30 people like Colgate, North
Dakota, the only way you could get out of it and get a decent education was
by enlisting and getting an education through the military. My father was
the valedictorian in his graduating class of *3*. But he was smart, still
is, as a matter of fact. Just for you information, Kylie, North Dakota is
very similar to the outback, but colder and flatter. Anyhow, my Mom,
through her own hard work in school got a scholarship to NDU, and they met
there The got married Dec. 27, 1960. Two years later, I was born, in a
very tiny house in Pheonix, AZ. My father sustained the family on a
Lieutenant's pay which is very low, and was especially low then. My mother
sustained her infant's vitamin C needs with grapefruits from the landlord's
tree, made all of our clothes, and budgeted meals on 50 cents a day rationing.
I grew up all over the world. I never understood the classism that exists
in the AF between NCO's and Officers (fully) until I was in my senior year
of high school. I had always had friends in both "classes". I didn't
understand the distinction, but had a rude awakening, but not the kind that
I think you think I had, Kylie. I had an extremely good friend that was a
daughter of a general, another that was the daughter of a Mastersargeant,
and a boyfriend that was the son of an NCO. I was a good student and active
in the drama club, symphony and choir. I studied hard, I wanted to learn,
and that was the main reason I was a good student. In my senior year, a
bunch of the officer's kids invited me into their more elite intellectual
"club", being naive and wanting to belong, I went to one of their meetings.
When I heard what they said about the NCO's I quailed and then one of them
said, "Of course, you should stop being friends with (my freind and
boyfriend) because they aren't officer's kids." I looked at them, my mouth
dropped and I stormed out of the room. (I should mention as well that my
best friend, the general's daughter, was not in that club, for the same
reasons). At the same *time* my mother was told because she refused to
attend these silly officer club wive's meetings any longer, (she hated them,
hated the bullshit that went on there) that my father wouldn't be promoted,
even though he was considered to be one of the very best judges in the Air
Farce. (pun intended). She had refused to sleep with a general or play the
"officer's wives club game", and because of that my father did not get a
favorable review for promotion, even after giving close to 35 years of
service to this organization. He was the best judge in the Air Force, and
was recognized for it by taking on the first espionage case that the Air
Force ever had. I was shunned by the officer's kids because I "fratenized"
with those of the "lower class." I didn't wear my father's rank on my
sleeve, so they decided I was unworthy of their ranks, and frankly I thought
this was such shit I ended up blatantly rubbing their noses in it. By
remaining true to those people I knew were real friends. At the end of the
year the valedictorian, (who was an officer's daughter, but not at all like
the rest of them, a very talented pianist and a brilliant woman ), my friend
who was the daughter of an NCO (equally brilliant) and myself played a
trick on the school. We were playing a world power "game" and I ended up
with all the other terrorists, and my two friends ended up with Quat and
Ireland. We took the teacher hostage with empty guns, terrorist costumes,
and the like. The students believed that we really had flipped out...and
they started to realize the reality that it doesn't matter what your rank
is, you are all subject to the same misery. The last time I checked, the
things we did are still legendary at the school. I walked in with a
bandolier of bullets on my chest, a dead handgrenade and an unarmed pistol,
and I took the teacher hostage, with the gun to his head. Mary (our
valedictorian) walked in with a Libyan type uniform on and made demands, and
Ruth played our rather testy IRA negotiator. I had the teacher in a closet
(he was in on it, he wanted to know how these kids would react to a crisis.)
This action completely changed their perspective with how to react. (oh,
and yes, this was all cleared with the school administration). Why do I
bring this up? To show that it doesn't really matter what rank you are or
what your father is to me. What you DO is important to me.
To accuse me of Classism, Kylie is a real BAD thing to do.
Kylie, it seems to me that you are saying that because you are Australian
and "low income" that you are exonerated from being expected to treat people
with respect, that somehow your nationality and economic status should
excuse it. Isn't this a form of "classism" and "nationalism" in itself? If
that is not what you are saying, then please clarify for me what it is that
you ARE saying.
I haven't said anything about this for awhile, but since you call for
publically posting annoyance to the list, then I am complying with your
wish. I have felt hesitant about even posting to this list because of these
insults and slights, and have felt intimidated by what I perceived as your
*lack* of tolerance, and from what I perceived a kind of "holier-than-thou"
attitude when you called for "solidarity." Really, why should I hang out
here if all I am going to be is abused? That is not what i thought ecofem
is about, but I guess I was wrong...
If there is one thing that really makes me angry, it is judgemental and
*condescending* attitudes, and us vs them type thinking. Which is what I
perceived from your posts. You divided me into a group that you seem to
consider the "enemy", and now try to imply that all Australians are just
like you. I KNOW that this is not TRUE. Isn't that a sweeping
generalization about people from a country as large and diverse as is
Australia? Australia is a HUGE country, very diverse, not just one culture,
but an intermixing of people from all kinds of different
socio-economic-cultural backgrounds. It's bigger than the U.S.! One of my
most treasured friends is an Australian woman from Canberra, who is now a
Priestess in our Church. She is a very intelligent and straight talking
woman (very Taurean, actually) but never resorts to below the belt tactics
in a debate. Sure, we disagree on some things, but I have never seen her
call anyone names because she disagrees with them.
I have met homeless on the streets of Santa Cruz who are civil, polite, and
kind. I have met many Australians on line and off (I happen to live with
one here on the land, as a matter of fact) who can debate a point without
resorting to histrionic and IMO immature tactics like calling someone names
to prove a point, or to gain support from others to defend their point of view.
And to speak of "economic status" I have been all across the gamut of it. I
know what it is to be poor, and I know what it is to be comfortable. Right
now I am neither, but that doesn't make my opinions or my feelings invalid.
I feel like I am being attacked because I *might* have a higher economic
status than you and because I am American, and that somehow, because of that
I am less of a human being than you are, who has less right to have hurt
feelings or to be treated "respectfully" as you so (ironically) put at the
end of your posts. Since you don't even know me, don't know my age, my
background, or anything else for that matter, I feel like I am being made
into the scapegoat of everything you have anger against, and I felt quite
bewildered and confused when you insulted me in the way you did. I don't
feel that my statements warranted such a backhanded and unkind attack. I
still don't.
You *don't* know what I have done in the women's rights and Environmental
movement, you *don't* know the risks I have taken, you *don't* now how much
money I have, you *don't* even know that I am American. I am, but you made
an assumption that I was, just because I *live* here. There are many, many,
many people in this country, Kylie, who aren't American. And many of them
have access to the net. For all you know, I could have been Ethiopean, and
married an American. I could have been (*gasp*) AUSTRALIAN, Kylie. Making
sweeping generalizations and assumptions is a dangerous and unwise thing to
do. Are you familiar with the term "assume"? (I'm not sure if this is a
U.S. qolloquialism or not so I will describe what is said of it here).
The qolloquialism is: "ASSUME makes an "ASS" of U and ME."
>
>We must be more tollerant of people. This is the year of tollerance. Let
>people blow off steam if they want and don't stifle debate.
First of all, please spell the word right. (one of my bugaboos, misspells).
It's t-o-l-e-r-a-n-c-e.
Secondly, don't you understand that *you* stifled debate by posting an
inflammatory post and making assumptions about me, when you didn't even know
me? Tolerance also means letting go of assumptions about people, not making
sweeping generalizations, not making judgements about people you know
nothing about. Tolerance, as I said in the previous post, is a two-way
street, and I don't feel that you've shown me any at all.
>But if youre annoyed by someone post you annoyance to the list.
Which I have done.
>
>Lets have less rules and more tollerance.
>
>Respectfully,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Interesting: Your people glorified organised violence for 40 centuries,
>but you imprison those who employ it privately."
> Mr Spock. Star Trek 'Dagger of the Mind'
>
>
>
Joy Williams
Scion, Church of All Worlds
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thou art God/dess!
