I don't think that is permaculture that can lead to good or a bad decisions. The concepts and principles are wise and I invite everybody to read and think about them (they are all about living sustainably).
It is the specific practitioner that can decide to take specific decisions when trying to meet the principles. There are definitely practitioners that make not published nor peer reviewed or even dubious claims but also some that support their claims with very interesting practical working examples (sustainable farms, forest gardens and living solutions). Also many "non academic people" are getting into "doing permaculture" so of course they might lack the scientific approach, but it is a bit like for agriculture, where you have farmers and scientists. Many fields are mixed bags. I believe that you can decide to do permaculture and only work along scientific terms. You might even call it with another name. The perfect implementation is all to be discovered or locally adapted.Let's all start doing controlled experiments along its principles and publishing results. We have been too busy finding ways to convert fossil fuel to food in the past few decades with highly questionable, to say the least, results. Francesca ________________________________ From: Chris Buddenhagen <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:49 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Permaculture + Leadership - Bring a friend FREE! As teenager I lived in New Zealand (probably late 1980s) when I met a key proponent of permaculture (Australian) at a festival about living well, mind, body and sustainably on the land. I guess they were presenting a workshop. I was there but a bit skeptical (at various levels). I remember looking at a permaculture book with the cool diagrams which did capture a bunch of ideas about maximizing use of water, nutrients, light etc with respect to designing your house and yard/farm. They lost me though as they promoted invasive nitrogen fixing trees for soil improvement and the further introduction of northern hemisphere trees to New Zealand (ones threatened by Dutch Elm or a similar disease I think) to protect the "genetic resources" which if you think about it is risky in more than one way. It has the hallmarks of being a movement that promotes a mix of common sense, superstition, and anecdotes with a dash of science. Its proponents advocate design ideas that supposedly mimic nature's so we as land managers/farmers/human race gain from her bounty, supposedly without damaging the ecosystems on which we depend. My analysis is that it can lead to a mix of good and bad decisions, even if it is good to think about many of the ideas presented. I think the industry that has formed around permaculture should be treated with extreme care, I am sure its a mixed bag. Chris Buddenhagen On Dec 17, 2012 8:01 PM, "David L. McNeely" <[email protected]> wrote: > I too looked at the web site. My impressions were identical with Wayne's. > David McNeely > > ---- Wayne Tyson <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ecolog: > > > > My questions remain unanswered. > > > > WT > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vladislav Davidzon" <[email protected]> > > To: "Wayne Tyson" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Permaculture + Leadership - Bring a friend FREE! > > > > > > Wayne, > > > > The core curriculum of a permaculture design training is contained in the > > Permaculture Designer's Manual by Bill Mollison that you can pick up at a > > public library or buy it for about $120. Permaculture is much bigger > than > > gardening or agriculture -- kinda like math is about a lot more than > > building > > briges. > > > > What you said about being counter-intuitive to mainstream approaches is > > exactly true. Functionally permaculture is a sustainable design science > > rooted in patterns of nature. Learning to observe those patterns however > > requires letting go of all the nonsense our society teaches us as > "truth"; > > it's really really simple. For example, the same branching pattern of a > > river is present in a tree and in every heart and body -- but we rarely > > ask why -- and obviously that pattern serves a tremendous number of > > design functions. > > > > "As the world's problems are continuing to get ever more complicated, the > > solutions remain embarassingly simple" (Bill Mollison). All the > answers > > are out there for us, as you likely know -- we're just not paying > attention. > > > > There is no woo-woo or anything to hide here… just very basic observation > > skills that lead us towards reconnecting with nature in really profound > and > > meaningful ways. > > > > -Vladislav > > > > -- > > Regenerative Leadership Institute > > www.permaculturedesigntraining.com > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Wayne Tyson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I went to the website and found it to be not up-front about the fees > and > > > charges. I take this as a bad sign. There's a lot of text of the > > > salesmanship variety, and that's not too impressive to me either. > > > > > > Permaculture may be the greatest thing that's come along, but without > > > detailed information it's hard to judge. I ran into the guy who > started it > > > in the late 1960's or early 1970's at big conference in Los Angeles, > and > > > came away from that encounter a bit uneasy about the guy. I don't know > why > > > these folks are timid about revealing the details, but maybe it's > because > > > they want me to pay for them? How much and what, exactly, do I get? How > > > much > > > additional training will I need, and how much will that cost me? In > other > > > words, what's the end-cost and the end-product? > > > > > > WT > > > > > > PS: A restoration ecologist of some repute once accused me of "keeping > > > secrets." I told him that I didn't have any secrets and that my > approach > > > to > > > ecosystem restoration and integration with human systems was not rocket > > > science but required enough knowledge of the constituent disciplines to > > > enable one to know what one didn't know and to avoid doing that. I > invited > > > him for coffee and asked him to ask away and I would not hold back any > > > secrets from him. I told him I would be willing to follow up, but he > never > > > called back. The more one knows about the details, the better one can > be > > > at > > > the art and science of ecosystem restoration, but I think I could > convey > > > most of the details required to carry out the concept in a few hours. > The > > > biggest problem seems to be the agronomic/horticultural concepts that > many > > > seem to believe are relevant to ecosystem restoration makes my approach > > > seem > > > so counterintuitive that they simply don't believe it. Now that it is > > > apparently ok to post a call for participants in seminars, etc., maybe > I > > > should "institute" one and see how many takers I could get for how much > > > money . . . > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Regenerative Leadership Institute" > > > <[email protected]> > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 8:15 PM > > > Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Permaculture + Leadership - Bring a friend FREE! > > > > > > > > >> Hello friends, > > >> > > >> We're thrilled to announce an incredible promotion -- sign up for > > >> any permaculture course before January 1st and bring a friend FREE - > or > > >> sign up by yourself and take a significant discount! > > >> More details at http://www.permaculturedesigntraining.com > > >> > > >> Join an unforgettable program in leadership, permaculture and > sustainable > > >> design in California with the world's most renowned > > >> instructors and change your life, your community and your planet. Not > > >> only do Common Circle Education courses offer the > > >> most complete curriculum of any similar course, but the people > > >> who come to the programs make this the most powerful leadership > > >> training offered anywhere. > > >> > > >> With powerful instructors and a deeply rich curriculum grounded in > > >> social/urban/suburuban permaculture and regenerative leadership, this > is > > >> the > > >> most powerful and complete permaculture training available. As the > > >> nation's > > >> leadership, sustainable living and permaculture school, Common Circle > > >> Education changes people's lives. Join us to build the life you've > > >> always > > >> wanted > > >> and the world where all beings thrive. > > >> > > >> What: Regenerative Leadership & Urban Permaculture Design > > >> Where: February 16-24th - San Francisco Bay Area, CA April 20-28th - > San > > >> Francisco Bay Area, CA > > >> -- We accept most financial aid, grants and Americorps awards -- and > you > > >> can get college credit for our programs. We also -- offer highly > > >> flexible > > >> payment plans. Sign up early and -- bring a friend FREE (contact us > for > > >> details)! > > >> -- > > >> -- Get more details @ http://www.permaculturedesigntraining.com/pdc > > >> "Permaculture Design course was a genuine heart and mind opening > > >> experience. If you are interested in finding how you can be part of > the > > >> life > > >> giving earth healing solution in today's global ecological and social > > >> crisis > > >> this course gives you an in depth and extensive overview of what it > takes > > >> to > > >> make it happen. " - Jessica M, Course Graduate > > >> > > >> During the workshop, we will talk about: > > >> > > >> * Smart nature-inspired design principles > > >> * Rainwater catchment and storage > > >> * Greywater - smart water re-use with plant filters > > >> * Food forests & garden design for food abundance * Eco-psychology and > > >> Regenerative Leadership * Intentional community design and dynamics > > >> * Bio-remediation and toxic waste cleanup * Natural building design - > > >> cob, > > >> strawbale and more > > >> * Soil biology and regeneration * Sustainable transportation and fuels > > >> * Green business and sustainable economics > > >> * Natural patterns and principles > > >> * Everything you ever wanted to know about plants and soil! > > >> > > >> "My experience in the course was invaluable. I find myself with a > > >> new permaculture lens that I can put on at will, and see the world > > >> around me in a way that I feel leads to making more conscious > > >> decisions and living better in harmony with the earth." > > >> - Deborah F., Course Graduate > > >> This course will combine critical design skills with leadership, > nature > > >> connection, and most importantly an urban focus, building > > >> and exceeding upon the internationally-recognized Permaculture Design > > >> Certification curriculum. Our programs offer by far the > > >> most complete curriculum of any similar course -- with a huge focus on > > >> leadership, personal growth and community design as well > > >> as green business. > > >> You'll learn how to create sustainable, thriving human systems, > > >> from green houses and organic gardens, to local micro-economies > > >> and communities, using sustainable design principles that are > > >> applicable to every human system, from businesses, communities, > > >> and cities to personal relationships. > > >> > > >> "The experiences I have had and people I have met > > >> has been life changing. On these trips, a community is created and > > >> everyone's individuality is honored, welcomed and celebrated as you > work > > >> together each day to prepare meals, confront issues large and small > and > > >> discover > > >> how each and every one of us can be the change that we wish > > >> to see in the world." - Marlee F, Course Graduate > > >> Because of our unique focus on Urban and Suburban solutions, > > >> our courses are radically different from most other programs, > > >> teaching permaculture as a design science rooted in nature. With most > of > > >> the world's population in cities, we must meet people where they live > > >> with > > >> real sustainable solutions. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> -- Get more details @ http://www.permaculturedesigntraining.com/pdc-- > > >> > > >> Starting by learning the lessons from nature with some of the > > >> world's most renowned organic farming experts, we will then look > > >> at how to apply what we learned from the soil and the water to > > >> building sustainable, lasting institutions. > > >> > > >> The Regenerative Leadership Institute is the nation's ecological > design > > >> and sustainable living school; our instructors are key leaders in > > >> sustainable living and permaculture design. > > >> > > >> We hope you will be able to join us for this incredible, life- > > >> changing experiential course! > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> Regenerative Leadership Institute > > >> The Nation's Sustainable Living and Permaculture Design School > > >> A+ Rated by the Better Business Bureau > > >> 1-800-376-3775 // www.permaculturedesigntraining.com > > >> 14525 SW Millikan Way, Suite 17760, Beaverton, OR 97005 > > >> Like us on Facebook: http://facebook.com/regenerativeleader > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- > > >> No virus found in this message. > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > >> Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2634/5464 - Release Date: > 12/16/12 > > >> > > > > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2637/5466 - Release Date: 12/17/12 > > -- > David McNeely >
