Roy, try the 40 meter wire fed with an antenna tuner on 30 meters before you get too fancy. I have had very good results on 30 with a 32 foot aluminum vertical.
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Julius Fazekas n2wn <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Julius Fazekas n2wn <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43' Vertical > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 8:13 AM > I'll back off on my comment based on Geoff's EZNEC > study, you may have issues > with 30/40 dual elements. > > I have used a single 40M element and remote switched in/out > tuned network > for matching. This did work well, but it's not as > simple as a parallel feed. > > 73, > Julius > > > Julius Fazekas n2wn wrote: > > > > Hi Roy, > > > > There's no reason to cut resonant radials if they > will be on the ground or > > buried. You gain nothing and waste time and money. If > they were raised > > then you should do what you suggest. > > > > The radials should be dense near the base of the > antenna, that is where > > the current is highest and the ground lose is most > profound. > > > > You're in an area that typically has better soil > conditions than some of > > us have. I suspect you could have a great signal with > 30 to 36 radials, > > versus 64 where you might only pick up a half dB. > > > > There have been a number of great studies published in > QEX and NCJ in the > > past couple of years. Well worth reading before hand. > > > > Rudy, N6LF, has posted his studies online at > > > http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/design_of_radial_ground_systems/ > > > > Well worth reading to save time and effort. > > > > You should be able to do what you suggest with the > ladder line. You may > > have to trim the 30M element a few times, or better > yet, tune it with a > > cap at the base to bring it to resonance. > > If you're an ARRL member search for: "An > Efficient Multiband Vertical for > > 160 through 20 Meters" which uses a similar > approach. > > > > I use stranded 18 AWG for my radials and they work > well. I know folks > > using smaller gauge with higher power too. It just > depends on how many and > > how much traffic you have near them (from a mechanical > perspective). > > > > Any vertical that is base loaded is the least > efficient, stay away from > > those if possible. I've been through this and the > difference is like night > > and day. > > > > Good luck with the build! > > > > 73, > > Julius > > > > > > Roy Davis wrote: > >> > >> I am in the process of building a 40 meter 1/4 > wave vertical. My hopes > >> for > >> this antenna is that when the conditions favor > vertical antennas as > >> opposed > >> to a dipole, that it will help me to work in to > the far East as my dipole > >> does not. I understand that a dense radial field > is necessary for good > >> results and that the far field which I have no > control is a factor. My > >> plan > >> is to use 64 insulated radials as close to > resonant as possible, buried a > >> few inches below soil. I thought of using ladder > line as the radiator, > >> cutting one side for 40 and the other for 30 > meters supported by a > >> catenary > >> line. If that does not prove out, I have aluminum > tubing which to make a > >> 1/4 wave for 40. Anyone have any comments pro or > con for my project? So > >> far, I have the pipe in the ground, and the > radials cut ready to attach > >> to > >> the DX Engineering radial plate. > >> > >> I have K3 #1366 and really like this radio. A lot > to offer in such a > >> small > >> package. > >> > >> 73. > >> > >> Roy Davis - WK4Y > >> Richmond VA > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "WILLIS COOKE" > <[email protected]> > >> To: "James Apple" > <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; > >> "Darwin, > >> Keith" <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 6:12 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43' Vertical and the > K2 tuner > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Keith, in theory the 5/8 vertical should be 3 > db stronger than the 1/4 > >>> vertical installed in the same position. A > ground plane on top of a > >>> house > >>> could easily be as good or better than a 5/8 > wave ground mounted and > >>> radiating into the side of the house and some > trees. 3 db is about 1/2 > >>> S > >>> unit anyway, so it will not be a large > difference. You are correct > >>> about > >>> the far field conductivity being very > important in how a vertical > >>> antenna > >>> will play, whether it is mounted on top of a > tower or house or ground > >>> mounted. The radials are most important to > bring up the radiation > >>> efficiency, the far field is most important > for the take off angle. > >>> > >>> The 43 foot vertical will have a higher > radiation resistance than a > >>> shorter vertical for all bands, making it > easier to get the efficiency > >>> up. > >>> It will still be lower than 50 ohms for 160, > 80 and 60 meters, about 50 > >>> ohms for 40 and higher for the upper > frequencies. I don't have one > >>> because I have a 3 element SteppIR with the > 30/40 dipole trombone at 21 > >>> meters. I don't think the 43 foot > vertical will play as well, but they > >>> do > >>> play well. I have worked several of the > Zero-Five offering and they all > >>> play well. I would expect the DXE, Hygain and > MFJ to play well also, > >>> but > >>> they are newer and I don't know anyone who > has one. All still need a > >>> good > >>> ground plane and will play much better with > conductive soil. > >>> > >>> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke > >>> K5EWJ > >>> > >>> > >>> --- On Sun, 3/15/09, Darwin, Keith > <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> From: Darwin, Keith > <[email protected]> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43' Vertical > and the K2 tuner > >>>> To: "James Apple" > <[email protected]>, [email protected] > >>>> Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 2:39 PM > >>>> A few years ago, I was really on the 5/8 > vertical bandwagon. > >>>> I thought it was the cat's meow. The > problem was that > >>>> real world A/B testing did NOT show it to > be any better than > >>>> a 1/4 wave vert. > >>>> > >>>> I had a 5/8 wave vert for 15 meters. > Ground mounted over > >>>> 16 radials. An ATU at the base took care > of the small > >>>> impedance mismatch and RG-213 carried the > signal to the rig. > >>>> Hot stuff - or so I thought. > >>>> > >>>> I also had a 1/4 wave ground plane (4 > radials) on the roof > >>>> of my single story house. It was fed with > RG-58. I spent a > >>>> lot of time with an A/B switch listening > to both antennas. > >>>> You'd think the 5/8 with it's > mondo low-angle > >>>> radiation pattern would walk all over the > 1/4 wave but it > >>>> DID NOT. DX signals as the band was just > opening or closing > >>>> were sometimes stronger on the 5/8, other > times on the 1/4. > >>>> There was no clear winner. > >>>> > >>>> It was years before I found the answer. > >>>> > >>>> Apparently, that wonderful low angle > radiation that we want > >>>> out of the 5/8 wave antenna depends > HEAVILY on the ground > >>>> conductivity many, many wavelengths away > from the antenna. > >>>> Far out of the reach of any ground radial > system, poor soil > >>>> conductivity is sucking the low angle > radiation down to near > >>>> zero. Sure, over salt water it is > fabulous, but for the > >>>> vast majority, it just doesn't pan out > that way. > >>>> > >>>> So, for "normal" soil, it seems > the best height > >>>> is something less than 1/2 wave. > >>>> > >>>> I run a 33' vertical with a Hustler > 80M resonator on > >>>> top. It resonates on 80 and 40 and does > pretty well on > >>>> those two bands. It also delivers the > goods on 30 meters > >>>> due to the remote tuner. On 20 meters and > higher it > >>>> isn't really all that impressive. > >>>> > >>>> - Keith N1AS - > >>>> - K3 711 - > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: [email protected] on > behalf of James > >>>> Apple > >>>> Sent: Sun 3/15/2009 9:26 AM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: [Elecraft] 43' Vertical and > the K2 tuner > >>>> > >>>> After the ice storm of 2009, I'm > looking for an new > >>>> antenna. I've > >>>> been considering the 43' verticals by > DXE,HyGain and > >>>> MFJ. But I'm not > >>>> sure if my K2 tuner will have the range > needed. The DXE > >>>> site has a > >>>> warning about internal tuners. Anyone > using a K2 and a > >>>> 43' vertical ? > >>>> how's it play ? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks in Advance > >>>> > >>>> - Jim (WB1DOG) > >>>> > ______________________________________________________________ > >>>> Elecraft mailing list > >>>> Home: > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >>>> Post: mailto:[email protected] > >>>> > >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >>>> Please help support this email list: > >>>> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ______________________________________________________________ > >>>> Elecraft mailing list > >>>> Home: > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >>>> Post: mailto:[email protected] > >>>> > >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >>>> Please help support this email list: > >>>> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > >>> > ______________________________________________________________ > >>> Elecraft mailing list > >>> Home: > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >>> Post: mailto:[email protected] > >>> > >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >>> Please help support this email list: > http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.15/2003 > - Release Date: > >> 03/15/09 > >> 14:07:00 > >> > >> > ______________________________________________________________ > >> Elecraft mailing list > >> Home: > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >> Post: mailto:[email protected] > >> > >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >> Please help support this email list: > http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > >> > >> > > > > > > > ----- > Julius Fazekas > N2WN > > Tennessee Contest Group > http://www.k4ro.net/tcg/index.html > > Tennessee QSO Party > http://www.tnqp.org/ > > Elecraft K2/100 #4455 > Elecraft K3/100 #366 > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/43%27-Vertical-and-the-K2-tuner-tp2481408p2486607.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[email protected] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: > http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[email protected] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
