Thank you, Rich, Serves me right for throwing out the old UL478 once our products were updated to UL1950 and relying on memory as to what was inside 478!
Tania Grant [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Nute Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 7:04 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing Hi Tania: > I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather state that you might be > thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that are no longer in force. B > ut I don't believe that even they allowed a willy-nilly change from groun > ded equipment to one that is ungrounded, unless provided with a special g > rounding plug adapter. Well... I *AM* an old-timer! And you can call me that! Back in the days of UL 114 and UL 478, there were no classifications (in North America) equivalent to Class I and Class II, and the concept of double-insulation was barely touched upon in UL 114. Likewise, (in North America) there were no insulation designations equivalent to Basic, Supplementary, and Reinforced. The rule was simply that all insulations must be UL-recognized insulations, and that all components must be UL-recognized components. If you submitted a product with a ground wire, it was tested as if it did not have a ground wire. The justification was that, even though the NEC mandated grounded outlets for all new electrical installations, there were still many installations with 2-wire sockets. Insulations were tested by a hi-pot test. The hi-pot test voltage was 1000 volts. During the time of UL 114 and UL 478, the test voltage was changed to 2V + 1000, where V is the maximum rated voltage of the equipment. The spacings (not clearance or creepage) were HUGE by comparison to today. I believe they were based on a wire strand escaping from a screwed connection. But, I digress. My point is that under UL 114 and UL 478, certified two-wire products used a single insulation just as we do today for grounded products. They did not use double or reinforced insulation. The ground was something "nice," but not necessary. But, if you used a ground, it had to meet all the electrical and constructional requirements! Best regards, Rich > From [email protected] Thu May 17 16:09:50 PDT 2001 > Received: from sanrel1.sdd.hp.com (sanrel1.sdd.hp.com [15.80.36.45]) > by hpsdlfsa.sdd.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02 sdd epg) with > ESMTP id QAA18862 > for <[email protected]>; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from ruebert.ieee.org (ruebert.ieee.org [199.172.136.3]) > by sanrel1.sdd.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.8.5btis+epg) with ESMTP id > QAA28864 > for <[email protected]>; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:09:47 -0700 (PDT) > Received: (from daemon@localhost) > by ruebert.ieee.org (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) id f4HMvZe00995 > for emc-pstc-resent; Thu, 17 May 2001 18:57:35 -0400 (EDT) > X-Originating-IP: [63.25.206.200] > From: "Tania Grant" <[email protected]> > To: "Allen, John" <[email protected]>, > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing > Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:58:02 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 6.00.0010.0912 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0" > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2001 22:57:27.0434 (UTC) > FILETIME=[BE815EA0:01C0DF24] > Sender: [email protected] > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: "Tania Grant" <[email protected]> > X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients <[email protected]> > X-Listname: emc-pstc > X-Info: Help requests to [email protected] > X-Info: [Un]Subscribe requests to [email protected] > X-Moderator-Address: [email protected] > > > > ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > John, > > I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather state that you might be= > thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that are no longer in force. B= > ut I don't believe that even they allowed a willy-nilly change from groun= > ded equipment to one that is ungrounded, unless provided with a special g= > rounding plug adapter. The equipment adhering to these standards may sti= > ll be allowed to be shipped until 2005, I believe, provided that no major= > changes are being made to this equipment;-- at which point, the new sta= > ndard (UL/CSA 60950) applies. =20 > > However, UL no longer allows new equipment to be submitted to these older= > standards. I forget exactly the cut-off date when that happened. =20 > > The key point is that equipment defined as Class I under IEC/EN 60950 wou= > ld be defined the same under the UL/Canadian 60950 standard and require a= > n earthed connection. Thus, short of redesigning completely the stated = > equipment and making it Class II, there is no way that a 2-pin plug would= > be legal (or sane). > > [email protected] > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Allen, John > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 8:13 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing > > > > Hi Folks > > >From my days (about 10 years ago) of dealing with UL on this issue, I see= > m > to remember that pluggable Listed products had to a power cord and that > power cord had to have a fitted plug that was suitable and legal for the > country in which the product was to be used - and that certainly included > the USA. > > Taking on board some of the comments from other respondents,it is > difficult/impossible to use, or sometimes to even sell, a product that is > not Listed by UL or another NRTL - and they will only List if it complies > with the appropriate standard. Most of these standards are now harmonize= > d > with Canada - and fairly much with the rest of the World > > However,there used to be (and I suspect that a few are still around)a num= > ber > of very old US/Canadian standards which had much less stringent requireme= > nts > for insulation sizing and dielectric withstand, and often did not require > either a Class I earth connnection or "proper" double insulation for type= > s > of products where the equivalent IEC/EN standards did/do require one or t= > he > other. > > Possibly, this is where the orginal correspondent's customer probably got > his idea that a 2-pin plug would be adequate! > > Nevertheless if there is an appropriate "old style" standard still valid = > for > the product, and the product meets the relevant technical requirements, t= > hen > it could be possible for him to obtain Listing with that 2-pin plug! > > Now, someone tell me that I am too out-of-date and that the above > possibility does not exist (please!). > > John Allen > Thales Defence Communications Division > Bracknell, UK > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Crabb, John [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 17 May 2001 09:44 > To: 'Enci'; [email protected] > Subject: RE: US Mains Plug/Earthing > > > > I don't know if you "have" to fit a plug, but I can > certainly tell you that our USA customers would be > VERY UNHAPPY if we supplied a product without a plug. > I certainly have the impression that fitting a plug > in the USA is not something that people expect to > have to do. > > Regards, > John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , > NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Kingsway West, Dundee, Scotland.. DD= > 2 > 3XX > E-Mail :[email protected] > Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243. VoicePlus > 6-341-2289. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Enci [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 17 May 2001 08:03 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Earthing > > > > Thank you for all your comments. > > Do EU manufacturers have to fit a suitable mains plug > to appliances when exporting to USA?... or can it > be supplied without a plug, putting the requirement on the user > to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that > a grounding plug must be used ? > > > Thank you. > > > ------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > [email protected] > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson: [email protected] > Dave Heald [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: [email protected] > Jim Bacher: [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.rcic.com/ click on "Virtual Conference Hall," > > ------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > [email protected] > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson: [email protected] > Dave Heald [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: [email protected] > Jim Bacher: [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.rcic.com/ click on "Virtual Conference Hall,"<br clea= > r=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"http://e= > xplorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p> > > ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0 > Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>John,</DIV> <D= > IV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate to call you an old-timer;-- I would rather st= > ate that you might be thinking of UL 114 and UL478 standards that&n= > bsp;are no longer in force. But I don't believe that even the= > y allowed a willy-nilly change from grounded equipment to one that is ung= > rounded, unless provided with a special grounding plug adapter. The= > equipment adhering to these standards may still be allowed to be shipped= > until 2005, I believe, provided that no major changes are being made to = > this equipment;-- at which point, the new standard (UL/CSA 60950) a= > pplies. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, UL no longer a= > llows new equipment to be submitted to these older standards. = > I forget exactly the cut-off date when that happened. </DIV>= > <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The key point is that equipment defined as Class = > I under IEC/EN 60950 would be defined the same under the UL/Canadian 6095= > 0 standard and require an earthed connection. Thus, short of = > redesigning completely the stated equipment and making it Class II, there= > is no way that a 2-pin plug would be legal (or sane).</DIV> <DIV> <= > /DIV> <DIV><A href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</A></= > DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT= > : 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px soli= > d; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Mes= > sage -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FON= > T-COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Allen, John</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 1= > 0pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 17, 2001 8:13 AM</DIV> <DIV st= > yle=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> [email protected]</DIV= > > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: US Mains Plug/= > Earthing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><BR>Hi Folks<BR><BR>From my days (about 10 = > years ago) of dealing with UL on this issue, I seem<BR>to remember that p= > luggable Listed products had to a power cord and that<BR>power cord had t= > o have a fitted plug that was suitable and legal for the<BR>country in wh= > ich the product was to be used - and that certainly included<BR>the USA.<= > BR><BR>Taking on board some of the comments from other respondents,it is<= > BR>difficult/impossible to use, or sometimes to even sell, a product that= > is<BR>not Listed by UL or another NRTL - and they will only List if it c= > omplies<BR>with the appropriate standard. Most of these standards a= > re now harmonized<BR>with Canada - and fairly much with the rest of the W= > orld<BR><BR>However,there used to be (and I suspect that a few are still = > around)a number<BR>of very old US/Canadian standards which had much less = > stringent requirements<BR>for insulation sizing and dielectric withstand,= > and often did not require<BR>either a Class I earth connnection or "prop= > er" double insulation for types<BR>of products where the equivalent IEC/E= > N standards did/do require one or the<BR>other.<BR><BR>Possibly, this is = > where the orginal correspondent's customer probably got<BR>his idea that = > a 2-pin plug would be adequate!<BR><BR>Nevertheless if there is an approp= > riate "old style" standard still valid for<BR>the product, and the produc= > t meets the relevant technical requirements, then<BR>it could be possible= > for him to obtain Listing with that 2-pin plug!<BR><BR>Now, someone tell= > me that I am too out-of-date and that the above<BR>possibility does not = > exist (please!).<BR><BR>John Allen<BR>Thales Defence Communications Divis= > ion<BR>Bracknell, UK<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Crabb= > , John [mailto:[email protected]]<BR>Sent: 17 May 2001 09:4= > 4<BR>To: 'Enci'; [email protected]<BR>Subject: RE: US Mains Plu= > g/Earthing<BR><BR><BR><BR>I don't know if you "have" to fit a plug, but I= > can<BR>certainly tell you that our USA customers would be<BR>VERY UNHAPP= > Y if we supplied a product without a plug.<BR>I certainly have the impres= > sion that fitting a plug<BR>in the USA is not something that people expec= > t to<BR>have to do.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>John Crabb, Development Excellence= > (Product Safety) ,<BR>NCR Financial Solutions Group Ltd., Ki= > ngsway West, Dundee, Scotland. DD2<BR>3XX<BR>E-Mail :John.Crabb@Scotland.= > NCR.COM<BR>Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289 (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-62224= > 3. VoicePlus<BR>6-341-2289.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Mess= > age-----<BR>From: Enci [mailto:[email protected]]<BR>Sent: 17 May 2001 0= > 8:03<BR>To: [email protected]<BR>Subject: Re: US Mains Plug/Ear= > thing<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thank you for all your comments.<BR><BR>Do EU manufa= > cturers have to fit a suitable mains plug<BR>to appliances when exporting= > to USA?... or can it<BR>be supplied without a plug, putting the requirem= > ent on the user<BR>to follow the instructions - in my case, stating that<= > BR>a grounding plug must be used ?<BR><BR><BR>Thank you.<BR><BR><BR>-----= > --------------------------------------<BR>This message is from the IEEE E= > MC Society Product Safety<BR>Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list= > .<BR><BR>Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/ps= > tc/<BR><BR>To cancel your subscription, send mail to:<BR> &nbs= > p; [email protected]<BR>with the single line:<BR>  = > ; unsubscribe emc-pstc<BR><BR>For help, send mail to the list admin= > istrators:<BR> Michael Garretson: &nbs= > p; [email protected]<BR> = > Dave Heald &n= > bsp; [email protected]<BR><BR>For poli= > cy questions, send mail to:<BR> Richard Nute:&nbs= > p; [email protected]<B= > R> Jim Bacher:  = > ; [email protected]<BR><BR>All emc-ps= > tc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:<BR> &nb= > sp; http://www.rcic.com/ click on "Virtual = > Conference Hall,"<BR><BR>-------------------------------------------<BR>T= > his message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety<BR>Technical Comm= > ittee emc-pstc discussion list.<BR><BR>Visit our web site at: http:= > //www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/<BR><BR>To cancel your subscription, sen= > d mail to:<BR> [email protected]<BR>with the sin= > gle line:<BR> unsubscribe emc-pstc<BR><BR>For hel= > p, send mail to the list administrators:<BR> Mich= > ael Garretson: pstc_admin@garre= > tson.org<BR> Dave Heald &n= > bsp; daveheal= > [email protected]<BR><BR>For policy questions, send mail > to:<BR> = > Richard Nute:  = > ; [email protected]<BR> Jim Bacher: = > ; j..bac= > [email protected]<BR><BR>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on = > the web at:<BR> http://www.rcic.com/ &= > nbsp; click on "Virtual Conference Hall,"<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BLOC= > KQUOTE></BODY></HTML><DIV><BR><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download = > of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com";>http://explorer.ms= > n.com</a><br></p></DIV> > > ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C0DEEA.26E613E0-- > > ------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > [email protected] > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson: [email protected] > Dave Heald [email protected] > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: [email protected] > Jim Bacher: [email protected] > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.rcic.com/ click on "Virtual Conference Hall," > >
