I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that Ofcom in the UK has asked about interference to any communication service, not just amateur radio. And the majority of the complaints in the UK relate to interference to services other than amateur radio. I know that my own (limited) experimentation has shown that communications services outside the amateur radio bands are significantly impacted by PLC devices.
Let’s consider where the majority of these devices are located and operated (not talking access BPL here). They are in the domestic environment. And what is the most common use of the HF spectrum in the domestic environment? Amateur radio. So, if you notch the amateur radio bands (which HomePlug wisely and responsibly did a number of years ago) you eliminate the majority of potential interference complaints before they happen. Works great and everybody (almost) is happy. Then the regulator (Ofcom) comes along and asks people to look outside the amateur radio bands. Lo and behold – noise! Did the regulators in France and Germany do this? Not to my knowledge. Hence, more complaints in the UK than in France or Germany. Ghery S. Pettit From: Mark Gandler [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:00 PM To: Pettit, Ghery; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System Unfortunately, hams complaining about anything and everything related to BPL, even small home Ethernet adapters, which are notched, signals are lower power and they get significantly reduced power beyond any circuit breaker. And those products are easier targets, as there are more of them around, they are on store shelves and fall under EMC Directive. and why are the majority of the complaints come from UK? BPL has much higher sales in Germany and France. As well we are not getting any complaints from any government operations. If hams will be the only ones with communication devices left during the disaster, please make sure to post your addresses, so we can all flock to it, I am not joking. ________________________________ From: [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:23:49 -0700 Subject: RE: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System A key reason that you don’t hear complaints about interference to amateur radio communications in the HF bands from PLC devices is that the HomePlug Alliance notched the ham bands when they designed their original standard, HomePlug 1.0. IEEE 1901 also calls for not using the carriers in the amateur radio bands. As a result, hams have been protected from interference by most in-home PLC products and can co-exist with them. Problems occurred from “access BPL” systems using the overhead medium voltage distribution system when they did not notch the ham bands, or when they did not adequately notch them. And now Part 15, Subpart G of the FCC Rules deals with these access BPL systems and places a number of restrictions on them. Certain bands are prohibited to protect non-amateur radio communications services. Operation in certain geographical locations is prohibited to protect certain government operations. These limitations are in place to protect critical users of the HF spectrum. Please keep in mind that part of the “conflict” here is that incumbent licensed and government users of the radio frequency spectrum have an expectation that they will be protected against interference by non-licensed users of the spectrum. And PLC is a non-licensed user of the spectrum. Cell phones are great, when they work. Unfortunately, experience has shown that often when you need them the most, the system gets overloaded and either crashes or you get locked out so that key users can access the network. And landline phones can also fail. These are not hypothetical situations, they are real. So don’t throw out a service that works, even in a serious emergency. Ghery S. Pettit From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Gandler Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 11:53 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System it doesn't stop to amaze me how the group so small can create so much "noise" regrading BPL/PLC products. It looks like one of those unique cases where small portion of compliance community/radio enthusiast rebel against its own. How come there is no complaints or bad publicity in US? Because it's regulated. Do you really believe if PLC have interfered with any government or military communication, it would have remained to operate as is? Look at 5Ghz spectrum and DFS requirements. Even slight interference with weather radars resulted in swift regulations updates with either eliminating certain part of the band or requiring products to comply immediately. Give me a break. HMMMMMMMM radio with your buddies? what if doomsday doesn't come? ever heard of the phone, IM? It is nothing personal, sorry for ranting, but it bugs to keep dealing with those complaints, waste my own and my company time and resources, even Offcom and they are very sympathetic to our cause. Stop complaining, put your efforts in changing the standards and regulations. Or get the cell phone. > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:29:03 +0100 > > I think Gert's analogy of PLC is excellent. If anyone is interested in > finding out more about problems it can cause please check out this section > of The EMC Journal http://www.compliance-club.com/default.aspx?id=17 > > Cheers > Alan E Hutley > Editor > The EMC Journal > www.theemcjournal.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen > [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 18 May 2010 6:55 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PSES] CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System > > There is no way of transmitting PLC (power line communications) > signals at a usable > signal level without severely interfering with wireless > HF communications. Why else do you think we invented the > coaxial cable to "transport" RF-signals ?? > > PLC has shown to be a mix of conducting and radiating HF > close field signals with mutual coupling between multiple wire > sets insuring signal continuity between sender and transmitter. > At the proposed levels of signal (105 dBuV +) and power line > density all of the residential areas will be virtually full of noise. > > I believe that PLC systems need to be treated as intentional radiators > (=transmitters). > > Distributing HF signals by PLC can be compared with distribution > of crude oils by the leaking platform in the gulf of mexico. > The oil will arrive at its destination port ..... once ! > And with the economic advantage of saving oil tankers or > pipe lines. > > Gert Gremmen > Ce-test, qualified testing bv > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Namens John Woodgate > Verzonden: maandag 17 mei 2010 22:18 > Aan: [email protected] > Onderwerp: Re: CE Standard for Power Lines data Transmission System > > In message <5DF40095BBDD4BD1A518F1F8EE4C6440@dell27c5040f40>, dated Mon, > > 17 May 2010, John Allen <[email protected]> writes: > > >I am surprised we have heard nothing from Mr Woodgate on this issue - I > > >think he has very strong views on the whole PLT issue! > > My message is already there; you just have to find it! > > My 'strong view' is that we **need to be clever enough** to make it work > > (because the economic benefits could be very large) while not > compromising wireless communication in the HF band (because that's > economically important, too). > > What isn't at all clever is to pretend that emissions tens of dB above > current limits are harmless, and neither is an insistence that those > current limits are some sort of natural law that cannot be adapted at > all. > -- > OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk > John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK > I should be disillusioned, but it's not worth the effort. > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <[email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> > David Heald: <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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