Hi Pete, Thanks for your view! Firstly I dare to say it is not a new issue since I have read some reviews with this concern in the past plus a quick search of products available on the market showing some models in exist. I do believe the standard committee and manufacturers are well aware of it. It must have a reason to be tolerated or in a lower priority. This forum has lots of expert and senior and looking for their enlightenment or common alignment.
Regards, Scott On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 01:26, Pete Perkins <[email protected]> wrote: > Scott, > > > > In watching this thread it is clear that the technical > assessment and the regulatory certification are two separate issues but > linked by local law so we need to be cognizant of the regulatory > environment. > > > > The technical assessment (per the standard) is organized > by an ongoing group of (fallible) folks who work very hard to cover all of > the risks (usually) from the product manufacturers point of view (since > they seem to dominate the technical committees). Since the requirements > are usually written in retrospect from experience and, usually, not > organized in a top down approach (using the usual risk assessment tools – > FMEA, etc) it is incomplete is some (usually) unexpected ways – as you have > discovered. When exposed, the standards committee then scrambles to fill > the hole identified. This is a never ending process, approaching > perfection asymptotically. > > All this ignores the clever manufacturer who seeks out these holes and > makes use of them to gain advantage in some way. > > > > The regulatory certification reflects the level of > development of the National bureaucracy responsible for setting > requirements. Additionally, the lobbying of legislators and bureaucrats by > special interest groups affects the final rules applied. So it ends up > being a patchwork of requirements that need to be applied by the > manufacturer. > > John Woodgate assures us that the world is happy with the UK approvals; > check it out carefully. Oh yes, a question – does Hong Kong or Singapore > still use the British plug design? What residual of this usage is still > left in the world? > > > > All of this is the reason that you and I (and most of the > others on this net) have a meaningful job – once we get a little experience > and are willing to put up with the uncertainty regarding the roles of > requirements along with the varied level of enforcement by the legal > jurisdictions. > > > > You are uncomfortable with this hole in the requirements. > When we feel that the requirements or the application of requirements is > either too strict or too slack our only recourse is to get (directly or > indirectly) involved in fixing things (in which managers and technical > folks excel) by joining a technical committee or lobbying the political > process that needs fixing. > > > > My advice is: pick your fights carefully and pursue them > with all you have – personal and corporate. You may even be successful in > some of the efforts. > > > > So much philosophizing; good luck in fixing the world. > > > > :>) br, Pete > > > > Peter E Perkins, PE > > Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant > > PO Box 23427 > > Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 > > > > 503/452-1201 > > > > IEEE Life Fellow > > [email protected] > > > > *From:* Scott Xe <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2018 9:48 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening > > > > Dear Johns, > > > > Thanks for advice abt other countries using 13A plugs & sockets! Do they > require specific approved bodies for issuing certification like UK? > > > > Regards, > > > > Scott > > > > *From: *John Allen <[email protected]> > *Reply-To: *John Allen <[email protected]> > *Date: *Monday, 16 July 2018 at 3:45 PM > *To: *<[email protected]> > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening > > > > Also used in Malta and Cyprus (even in “Turkish” Northern Cyprus IIRC!) – > and then there is Gibraltar. > > > > John E Allen > > W. London, UK > > > > *From:* John Mcauley [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] > *Sent:* 16 July 2018 01:03 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening > > > > Hi Scott > > > > Ireland uses the same plug as the UK as per I.S. 401:1997 - Safety > Requirements For Rewireable And Non-rewireable 13A Fused Plugs. > > > > IS 401 is the equivalent of BS 1363. > > > > Interesting issue about plugs being able to be inserted upside down in > some extension sockets. > > > > John McAuley > > > > > > *From:* Scott Xe <[email protected]> > *Sent:* 15 July 2018 23:32 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening > > > > Thank you for the clarification. > > > > On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, 12:47 am John Woodgate, <[email protected]> wrote: > > GPS applies to anything; that's why is called 'General...'. Anything can > fall within more than one Directive, in fact all electrical products fall > within both LVD and EMCD, as well as GPSD. > > BS 136X connectors are used outside the UK; the EU is not relevant to that. > > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > > Rayleigh, Essex UK > > On 2018-07-15 17:33, Scott Xe wrote: > > The product is for UK market only since 13A rectangular pins. I believe > only UK uses this type of plug within EU. As far as I remember, a couple > of such product reviews raised this concern in the past but I did not know > the BS standard does not prohibit it. I am uncomfortable with such design > if it meets the standard. > > > > According to LVD guidance, this type of product falls into LVD, not GPS. > John, how does this product relate to GPS? > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > Scott > > > > *From: *John Woodgate <[email protected]> <[email protected]> > *Date: *Sunday, 15 July 2018 at 10:53 PM > *To: *Scott Xe <[email protected]> <[email protected]>, > <[email protected]> <[email protected]> > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety design of shutter opening > > > > I believe that no-one thought of the possibility of a design that allowed > that incorrect insertion. It is known to the responsible BSI committee, but > of course it takes time for the standard to be amended. Until it is, > conformity to the existing standard cannot be denied. However, the > marketing of such a device might violate the GPS Directive in Europe, > although that is not certain because unshuttered sockets are legal in some > EU/EFTA countries. Since it only affects those countries that use the > BS136X system, the appropriate regulatory action may be problematical. > > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > > Rayleigh, Essex UK > > On 2018-07-15 14:52, Scott Xe wrote: > > I received a sample of portable extension sockets with a compliance > certificate of BS 1363-2. It is noted the slim enclosure design allows the > mains plugs to be inserted into the sockets up-side-down by mistake. In > such circumstance, only the earth pin is inserted and the plug opens the > shutter of L and N terminals posting the risk to access the L and N > terminals with a test pin. It is a foreseeable misuse but seems no breach > of the safety standard. Can someone share why it can be tolerated by the > standard? > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > Scott > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > > > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> David Heald: <[email protected]>
